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Thread: "Strong Lead"

  1. #61
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: "Strong Lead"

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    Your man-spin example and what the teacher said suggests to me there may be a confusion between a lead and a signal.

    The "sticking your arm out to the side" bit of the man-spin is signal.

    Most moves don't have a signal - you just lead it.
    Hmmm.... there's a fairly detailed discussion of the differences between lead and signal on the MJDA forum (here) - warning, it gets quite complex.

    Basically, I think it boils down to "it's not that simple"

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    Re: "Strong Lead"

    Quote Originally Posted by wigglebum View Post
    How about a sway. I assume a clear lead would be a slight pull and twist of the wrist.
    Yeah, sort of... it depends on the context really. It's extremely difficult to discuss this stuff in writing, because it depends on what you mean by "slight"...

    Quote Originally Posted by wigglebum View Post
    Oddly enough though have seen men nearly pull and snap an arm off.
    Sways can be iffy - and not just on the lead. When you think about it, you've still got your partner's arm (wrist) twisted, when you're actually in the sway position. Amir pointed that out a while back, and I've been trying to consider non-twisty alternative ways of doing a sway since then.

    Hell, any move that twists your partner's arm can be iffy.

    Quote Originally Posted by wigglebum View Post
    It seems to me I dont know when to shut up. lol
    Nope, these are all good questions, keep 'em coming.

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    Re: "Strong Lead"

    When I first started dancing I used to dance with two very different leads. One had a finger tip touch type lead and the other was very forceful. I got on really well with the forceful one. I knew where I was meant to be going and when I was meant to go. The far lighter lead was a nightmare for me. I just couldn't follow him. I had no idea about the flow of the moves so didn't know where he was expecting me to end up.

    However now I am more experienced the complete opposite applies. I love dancing with the lighter lead. It gives me freedom to express myself and now I understand the moves better I know where I'm expected to end up and I usually get there when I'm meant to be there. The stronger lead is now awful for me to dance with. I find him very yanky and there is no space for me to have any freedom.

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    Re: "Strong Lead"

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post

    No way! At the very least, its a partnership. Theres usually some sort of common ground, if there isn't then that partner is someone you want to avoid for a while
    I didn't know that. Thanks for telling me.

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    as

    Thank God. I wrote a post saying this very thing last night and discarded it. I was quite rude!
    What was the gist of it TA Guy? I just had a feeling that post was going to come back and bite me on the bum.
    Your's is much better Never ceases to amaze me how some peoples own particular style seems to mutate into the way it should be done as written in stone tablets.
    In my defence I wish to state that as a beginner I was told and told, that I was too floppy.....still too floppy......still too floppy.

    Then I over compensated and applied so much resistance I wrenched my left shoulder.

    So I'm never quite sure if I'm giving enough resistance and I tend to err on the side of caution. If the lead was matching me, then we possibly would lack enough resistance to do more than basic moves.

    That's what I was worried about in my post, I thought if I match the lead, I can't go wrong.


    Partners of equal ability negotiate (or find common ground as said above) Tradition does imply some advantage to the leader by the very fact that leading is involved I would guess
    Last edited by Astro; 9th-October-2007 at 04:22 PM.

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    Re: "Strong Lead"

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    What was the gist of it TA Guy? I just had a feeling that post was going to come back and bite me on the bum.
    Actually... it was other posts that was the inspiration

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    In my defence I wish to state that as a beginner I was told and told, that I was too floppy.....still too floppy......still too floppy.

    Then I over compensated and applied so much resistance I wrenched my left shoulder.

    So I'm never quite sure if I'm giving enough resistance and I tend to err on the side of caution. If the lead was matching me, then we possibly would lack enough resistance to do more than basic moves.

    That's what I was worried about in my post, I thought if I match the lead, I can't go wrong.
    OK, I'm not an expert on this, my knowledge comes from experience (often misleading)

    When a leader and follower come together, I guess they will both have their own ideas about how much tension should be in the connection. Obviously, too much tension or too little tension is bad, but generally I think it is considered 'a good thing' if the tension matches as close as possible. Most experienced dancers will adjust to this without thinking about it within certain limits. So tension, even for the same dancer, can vary a bit.

    I forget what it's called, but there is supposed to be some balanced point in the center of a couple that's closely related to this. So the leader has a center of balance, the follower has a center of balance, but the pair as a couple also has a center of balance.

    To the best of my knowledge tho, there is no way to describe exactly how much tension there should be in words. The only way to find that optimal tension is to dance with good dancers and copy them I'm always copying people better than me, or trying to anyway

    Might be worth searching the forum for 'connection exercises'. Some of those are relevant to tension and I think some have been described on here....

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    Re: "Strong Lead"

    Quote Originally Posted by wigglebum View Post
    How about a sway. I assume a clear lead would be a slight pull and twist of the wrist. If someone said a strong or firm lead. I wouldnt pull and twist the wrist hard because I know it would hurt. But I dont stop for a few seconds and think "Wait a sec....... This might hurt"

    Oddly enough though have seen men nearly pull and snap an arm off.
    I don't think that I twist anything leading a sway The main problem that occurs with a sway is that the lead tries to get the follower to do all the work and dosn't step in to collect them.
    The initial lead is to get the follower to step forward and put all their weight on the front foot, then the hand is swept round their waist to collect them in as the lead steps up to them... normally my connection changes from on the inside of the follower's fingers (leading them in), rolling round to the top of the index finger (starting the rotation), to resting my hand on top of theirs (finishing). Most of my connection is now from the hip and arm all down the follower's back: any lead will now initiate from these connection points and continue.

    But to the point if someone said "strong lead" on this move, what would you take it to mean? the lead pulling the follower in quickly and taking their hand way out to the side?

    I think that a lot of what people think on as "Strong" leads are leads ahead of the follower, dragging them wherever before they have a chance to move themselves. Do you think on dragging the hand of a child as hurting them? Why should you think on dragging the hand of an adult would? Couldn't you drag them with more force because they are bigger?

    It seems to me I dont know when to shut up. lol
    common problem ...not that I suffer from it my self

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    Re: "Strong Lead"

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    It seems to me I dont know when to shut up. lol
    common problem ...not that I suffer from it my self
    True enough. It's the rest of us who have to suffer...

    [To be taken in the spirit of the "putdown thread" - we love you really, Gadget!]

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    Re: "Strong Lead"

    Quote Originally Posted by wigglebum View Post
    If a follow has nearly pulled you off balance, my classic a catapult. Then you havent equalled your partners follow so you need to do that to get a better dance.
    Matching my partner's force is good. I also need to move in response to exerted forces. If I attempt to match my partner's force whilst holding my ground, then strains and stresses can become a problem, over the course of many dances. This is the same technique that allows follows to dance with very strong leaders without getting so much as a bruise.

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Every move is led. All of them.
    However, sometimes "just doing it" is how to lead the move. Here's an example of where I think "you just do it" (or words to that effect) is a legitimate explanation by a teacher of how to lead it. Around 2:00-2:30. Lindy, I'm afraid.

    Doug Silton - outside turn deceleration

    Quote Originally Posted by wigglebum View Post
    From a spectator view watching a couple how do you tell a clear lead and follow?
    Good question. For me, I'd say the lead and follow is demonstrated most clearly when everything the follower does appears to be precisely determined by what the leader does, rather than by script or habit or prearranged signal.

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    Re: "Strong Lead"

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    Good question. For me, I'd say the lead and follow is demonstrated most clearly when everything the follower does appears to be precisely determined by what the leader does, rather than by script or habit or prearranged signal.
    The tricky bit is trying to spot good lead-and-follow in a choreographed routine.

    Re: TA Guy's points about "centres of balance" - I wonder if circular dancing should use a shared centre - I guess that's best discussed on the slotted / circular thread...

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    Re: "Strong Lead"

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirlie Bird View Post
    When I first started dancing I used to dance with two very different leads. One had a finger tip touch type lead and the other was very forceful. I got on really well with the forceful one. I knew where I was meant to be going and when I was meant to go. The far lighter lead was a nightmare for me. I just couldn't follow him. I had no idea about the flow of the moves so didn't know where he was expecting me to end up.

    However now I am more experienced the complete opposite applies. I love dancing with the lighter lead. It gives me freedom to express myself and now I understand the moves better I know where I'm expected to end up and I usually get there when I'm meant to be there. The stronger lead is now awful for me to dance with. I find him very yanky and there is no space for me to have any freedom.
    This is so true, and speaks volumes to me about the motivations behind different men's leads too.

    From this I'd be willing to bet, if I didn't already know the answer, that the guys with light leads are the ones that enjoy being popular with the experienced followers, while the ones with strong leads are the ones that want to dance with less experienced women.

    The cynical part of me wants to say that the reason for this might be that this type of guy is after as many different and new women as possible for only one thing at dancing (and that's not the dancing), but I'm sure that's completely unreasonable of me.

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    Re: "Strong Lead"

    Quote Originally Posted by Tessalicious View Post
    This is so true, and speaks volumes to me about the motivations behind different men's leads too.

    From this I'd be willing to bet, if I didn't already know the answer, that the guys with light leads are the ones that enjoy being popular with the experienced followers, while the ones with strong leads are the ones that want to dance with less experienced women.

    The cynical part of me wants to say that the reason for this might be that this type of guy is after as many different and new women as possible for only one thing at dancing (and that's not the dancing), but I'm sure that's completely unreasonable of me.
    There is a certain element that make a bee line for new beginner follows, especially if they are young and pretty.

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    Re: "Strong Lead"

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    There is a certain element that make a bee line for new beginner follows, especially if they are young and pretty.
    Yes, it's called 'The male' and millions of years of biological programming can be pretty hard to ignore

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    Re: "Strong Lead"

    Quote Originally Posted by Tessalicious View Post
    From this I'd be willing to bet, if I didn't already know the answer, that the guys with light leads are the ones that enjoy being popular with the experienced followers, while the ones with strong leads are the ones that want to dance with less experienced women.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tessalicious View Post
    The cynical part of me wants to say that the reason for this might be that this type of guy is after as many different and new women as possible for only one thing at dancing (and that's not the dancing), but I'm sure that's completely unreasonable of me.


    Unreasonable of you? Nope. I had never thought of it like that before. Now though I can see it's exactly how you say. Scary I was that naive.

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    Re: "Strong Lead"

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirlie Bird View Post
    Unreasonable of you? Nope. I had never thought of it like that before. Now though I can see it's exactly how you say. Scary I was that naive.
    Mmmm, because women never go for good-looking men either...

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    Re: "Strong Lead"

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Mmmm, because women never go for good-looking men either...
    Ahem, I never said anything about being good-looking (ok, Astro did, but only as an aside). My point was more to do with variety and to some extent vulnerability and power over women who don't know any better

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    Re: "Strong Lead"

    Couple of randomly connected thoughts to throw in

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    So, in the "running around" example, I'd adopt a compatible dance style, with lots of walkarounds and things, rather than force my partner into something she simply didn't like. After all, slotted dancing isn't "better", necessarily, than circular-style, it's just a different style.
    A teacher at a workshop the other day was talking about duck moves ('flatbacks') and how some ladies are resistant to doing them. He said that's fine, follower's perogative, etc but that {paraphrased} 'you've asked me to dance and you know I like flatbacks so they're part of the deal' i.e the onus is more on the asker for the dance to be compatible with the style of the person they have asked. Interesting thinking. Agree? Disagree?

    The second thought is the realisation that more experience dancing hasn't necessarily made me a much better leader of the patterns I lead (though I do feel I am improving as I go) but has made me much better at seamlessly adapting if a lead I give isn't followed as intended which can then give the (misleading) impression that the lead and follow between myself & partner is working perfectly as intended.

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    Re: "Strong Lead"

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    'you've asked me to dance and you know I like flatbacks so they're part of the deal' i.e the onus is more on the asker for the dance to be compatible with the style of the person they have asked. Interesting thinking. Agree? Disagree?
    Disagree, unless I know you of old and have seen you dance many times, how will I know that this is your move of choice?
    "If you rebel against high heels, take care to do so in a very smart hat.'' George Bernard Shaw

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    Re: "Strong Lead"

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    A teacher at a workshop the other day was talking about duck moves ('flatbacks') and how some ladies are resistant to doing them. He said that's fine, follower's perogative, etc but that {paraphrased} 'you've asked me to dance and you know I like flatbacks so they're part of the deal' i.e the onus is more on the asker for the dance to be compatible with the style of the person they have asked. Interesting thinking. Agree? Disagree?
    Disagree.

    Two reasons:
    • You've got to be a real Move Fascist (and this is me saying it) to impose a move on someone who's clearly expressed a dislike of it, just because you can. And they may have good reasons for their dislike (e.g. bad back and drops).
    • You're assuming that the follower is familiar enough with the leader's style to make that judgement - this is not usually the case.


    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    The second thought is the realisation that more experience dancing hasn't necessarily made me a much better leader of the patterns I lead (though I do feel I am improving as I go) but has made me much better at seamlessly adapting if a lead I give isn't followed as intended which can then give the (misleading) impression that the lead and follow between myself & partner is working perfectly as intended.
    Sounds reasonable.

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    Re: "Strong Lead"

    Quote Originally Posted by Tessalicious View Post
    I'd be willing to bet, if I didn't already know the answer, that the guys with light leads are the ones that enjoy being popular with the experienced followers, while the ones with strong leads are the ones that want to dance with less experienced women.
    In other words, the light leads are hotshots, and the strong leads are good social dancers?

    Also, am I a light lead or a strong lead? I'm never sure.

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    Re: "Strong Lead"

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post

    In other words, the light leads are hotshots, and the strong leads are good social dancers?

    Also, am I a light lead or a strong lead? I'm never sure.
    You callin' me a hotshot just because I aspire to a light and delicate lead; which I believe I sometimes achieve in my very move inhibited way !! That's patently rubbish.

    I was quite proud of myself tonight as I invited a lady I knew to be a dedicated metranomic hand bouncer to a dance. I worked on isolating my lead from her hand bounce and had a reasonably satisfactory dance.

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