"Strong Lead"

[Dreadful Scathe]

Yes. The last time I forced a follow to break her circling pattern (and I had to do it every time she stepped back) the result was a truly abysmal dance

Oh I agree - where they won't or can't take the hint - i give up. I've only had 1 "memorable" dance where that was the case though.

I thought it was up to the follow to adapt to the lead?

No way! At the very least, its a partnership. Theres usually some sort of common ground, if there isn't then that partner is someone you want to avoid for a while

[wigglebum]

Hi all,

I'm not an experienced dancer like some people and I'm not sure what point Im trying to make if any, but this is what I have learnt.

First though, whats the difference between a Strong lead and a firm lead? Ive never really thought about it but after careful thinking isnt the difference just that a strong lead can sometimes hurt your partner and as someone said before throw them off balance?

I know its sometimes not very easy to see if you hurt your partner but deep down doesnt everyone know if they are being too forceful. If a teacher said to me to lead a strong lead I wouldnt pull my partners arm off because they advised me too. I would use my initiative to realise that dancing is meant to be fun rather than wrestling.

Although an extreme example and only a little bit similar I wouldnt throw myself of a cliff if someone told me too. I know afterall thats silly.

-If a follow has a limp lead you might be dead in the water and have to do lots of walking about. Pulling a limp lead looks awful (Sounds dodgy) and most likely they still need to learn tension.

-If a follow has nearly pulled you off balance, my classic a catapult. Then you havent equalled your partners follow so you need to do that to get a better dance.
Its upto us Men to lead the way! Drink anyone?

After all of that has anyone found a point to what I was saying? If not, im sorry and forve me for wasting 10 minutes of your life.

lol

Thanks

[David Bailey]

First though, whats the difference between a Strong lead and a firm lead? Ive never really thought about it but after careful thinking isnt the difference just that a strong lead can sometimes hurt your partner and as someone said before throw them off balance?

I think the consensus is that both terms are a bit dodgy, in that they imply use of physical force, which is Bad. "Clear lead" seems to be the preferred alternative, I think.

I know its sometimes not very easy to see if you hurt your partner but deep down doesnt everyone know if they are being too forceful.

No, they really don't - beginner leaders are focussing on leading the moves, they've got very little spare capacity to consider technique, forcefulness, style etc.

[wigglebum]

Maybe I dont understand the way people think.

When I first started 18 months ago regardless of what I was being taught I knew I didnt want to hurt my partner and to my knowledge I never have.

Strange though with the terminology. Strong, firm and clear etc.

I think as an early dancer with basic moves a clear lead is definately the way to go. Although, I used to have many people say how good my lead was because I indicate what I want them to do and let them do it. But a teacher said regardless of what others said that i should be firm.

How about this then.

Beginners move generally all have a clear lead so using firm is probably incorrect. Lets face it, sticking your arm out to the side is quite a good indication that your doing a man spin.

Maybe the firm lead should be used when your being taught or using variations of moves because sometimes the lead isnt clear. I can still remember asking a teacher a lead for a move only to be told "There isnt one, you just do it"

lol

[David Bailey]

Maybe I dont understand the way people think.

When I first started 18 months ago regardless of what I was being taught I knew I didnt want to hurt my partner and to my knowledge I never have.

Well, I don't remember having any conscious desire to hurt people when I started (that came after many years of practice ) - but then, I also didn't realise it could be a problem, or even that it was possible to hurt people by doing it wrong.

But a teacher said regardless of what others said that i should be firm.

Yeah. I wouldn't necessarily treat a Ceroc teacher's advice on leading technique as being gospel...

And I don't know what "firm" really means - it could refer to a lot of aspects. But it's possible to interpret "firm" as meaning, for example, a tight handgrip - and most people would agree that's generally a Bad Thing. Hence I'd avoid that term, because it's ambiguous.

Maybe the firm lead should be used when your being taught or using variations of moves because sometimes the lead isnt clear.

If your lead's not clear, then you need to work on the lead. I don't mean to sound patronising with that, by the way - but whenever I came across an "unleadable" move, I found that the more I worked on it, the easier it was to lead. So it was always my lead that needed work, rather than the move.

Of course, some moves are more difficult to properly lead than others - e.g. West Manhattan is a real tricky beggar - but extra "firmness" usually doesn't help. Clarity and precision of lead is much more useful.

I can still remember asking a teacher a lead for a move only to be told "There isnt one, you just do it"

Oh ***... (I'm not mad at you, but at the idiot teacher)

Every move is led. All of them. They have to be - how else can your partner follow - telepathy?

If it's the same teacher who gave you the "firm" advice, then he / she is an idiot, and I'd run away from them right now.

[TA Guy]

as

Yes, but the lead should also adapt to the follow.

So, in the "running around" example, I'd adopt a compatible dance style, with lots of walkarounds and things, rather than force my partner into something she simply didn't like. After all, slotted dancing isn't "better", necessarily, than circular-style, it's just a different style.

Getting hung up over the "correct" way to dance MJ is silly, because there isn't a correct way. There's good general technique, of course, but style is individual.

Thank God. I wrote a post saying this very thing last night and discarded it. I was quite rude! Your's is much better Never ceases to amaze me how some peoples own particular style seems to mutate into the way it should be done as written in stone tablets.


Personally, I think a lot of it depends on the experience of the partners.
If it's an experienced lead dancing with an inexperienced follow. I believe the onus is 100% on the experienced lead to adapt.
Yes, maybe there's an element of 'encouraging' a better way, but unless that is agreed verbally, a good lead will try and implement this using subtle pressures and guidance that hopefully over time will accumulate and help, but not go so far that it degrades the dance or ruins the followers enjoyment. It's a matter of degree and just plain forcing a follow to your style seems counterproductive and wrong to me.
IMO this 'adaptation' is part of being a good lead. *shrug* maybe I'm wrong, but I would have thought this was pretty much blindingly obvious.


Partners of equal ability negotiate (or find common ground as said above) Tradition does imply some advantage to the leader by the very fact that leading is involved I would guess

[wigglebum]

lol

I know its never anyones intention to hurt people but I was always aware of it. Bending arms and twisting wrists etc to me always meant the possibility of someone getting hurt.

2 different people I'm not mentioning names. lol

If Im honest up until this weekend I wasnt particularly bothered what teachers said `strong`,`firm` `clear` I did what I liked. Heres a question relevant to the thread.

From a spectator view watching a couple how do you tell a clear lead and follow?

My partner and I got through to the finals of Britrock but wasnt placed. My partner then went and asked for some feedback. One thing mentioned, not a clear lead follow. I pray it wasnt that bad, after all we got to the finals and my partner did exactly what I wanted. Seems an odd thing to say.

[David Bailey]

From a spectator view watching a couple how do you tell a clear lead and follow?

Hmmm. Tricky one.

By definition, your lead is clear primarilty to your partner, rather than to spectators. But yes, good connection is visible - e.g. Jordan and Tatiana, it's clear that they're connected at all times (I'm not sure if connection is the same as lead-and-follow, necessarily, but they're certainly closely related).

I assume that the only way you can judge lead-and-follow is by inference, in terms of viewing the effects of good vs. bad technique.

But if a judge said that, it's presumably their expert opinion, so it's worth working on your lead technique.

[wigglebum]

But if a judge said that, it's presumably their expert opinion, so it's worth working on your lead technique.

Will do! Cheers

[Chef]

Will do! Cheers

I should imagine that the next question forming in your mind would be "how?".

My own personal reccomendations would be (in no particular order)

Learn west coast swing. It is great for connection.

Book a private lesson with Amir for both yourself and your partner (a good lead is useless without a matching follower - you sink or swim as a partnership).

Blindfold your partner and lead her without music. Without visual cues your partner must rely on, and wait for, your physical lead. You get to feel where her weight is and vice versa. Without music you have more latitude to alter the speed both speeding up and slowing down without your partner being able to anticipate from the music and you both learn how to do that together. Do not be afraid to stop and play with the connection and your partners response to it. Without the experimentation you cannot discover new possibilites.


I am learning all the time about connection and lead and follow (as a leader, not understanding the followers needs inhibits your ability to deliver them) and I find them very powerful tools capable of great sublety in expert hands, truly wonderful when you see what an expert can do.

[wigglebum]

That all sounds pretty good. I have always wanted to learn WCS.

I have a battle sometimes anyway. My partner is a great partner but her timing can sometimes be awful and she relies on me to keep her on the beat. Cant wait to get the Britrock DVD. We had some dodgy dances together lol

[ducasi]

[...] Lets face it, sticking your arm out to the side is quite a good indication that your doing a man spin.

Maybe the firm lead should be used when your being taught or using variations of moves because sometimes the lead isnt clear. I can still remember asking a teacher a lead for a move only to be told "There isnt one, you just do it"

Your man-spin example and what the teacher said suggests to me there may be a confusion between a lead and a signal.

The "sticking your arm out to the side" bit of the man-spin is signal.

Most moves don't have a signal - you just lead it.

[wigglebum]

Your man-spin example and what the teacher said suggests to me there may be a confusion between a lead and a signal.

The "sticking your arm out to the side" bit of the man-spin is signal.

Most moves don't have a signal - you just lead it.

Very true, bad example. lol

I think i wont say anything in future, just because I might show how daft I am! lol

[Chef]

Very true, bad example. lol

I think i wont say anything in future, just because I might show how daft I am! lol

The only daft question is one that you already know the answer to - although you could be trying to find other peoples opinions so that you can consider them.

You ask away. The daft person is the one that doesn't ask and so remains daft.

There will always be lots of different opinions on this forum and somewhere amongst all the opinions you may find something that works for you.

[ducasi]

I think i wont say anything in future, just because I might show how daft I am! lol

Confused ain't the same as daft – you'd be daft if you want to remain confused though.

[Gadget]

When I first started 18 months ago regardless of what I was being taught I knew I didnt want to hurt my partner and to my knowledge I never have.

I doubt you thought "as long as it dosn't hurt my partner": normally not hurting someone is taken as read. It only is really thought about when someone says "ouch" or mentions the possability.

In saying that, it is rule No. 1 in MJ... and that's about it for rules everyone agrees on.

Beginners move generally all have a clear lead so using firm is probably incorrect. Lets face it, sticking your arm out to the side is quite a good indication that your doing a man spin.

I take it you are meaning that all the beginner moves have a fairly simple lead and that using force to accoumplish the movement is therefore not required. If so, I think that the only reason that beginner moves are thought on as having simple leads is due to the practice and repetition involved: the same reasoning for not requiring a forcefull lead could be applied to all moves.

{PS The lead for a man-spin is getting the follower to step forward and using your body to rotate them to face you again... the arm is an (unnecessary) signal }

Maybe the firm lead should be used when your being taught or using variations of moves because sometimes the lead isnt clear. I can still remember asking a teacher a lead for a move only to be told "There isnt one, you just do it"

There may not have actually been a lead to that bit of the move: a lead is only conveying information to your partner... a lot of the time when I have diffuculty with something I have found that it's not my actual lead being at fault, but my own position/movement and pre-cursor to the lead

... of course the teacher could have been wrong too

Never ceases to amaze me how some peoples own particular style seems to mutate into the way it should be done as written in stone tablets.

"Style" is everything that does not convey information to your partner. Or more commonly, confuses the information given to your partner. Especially "footwork"
{It's amazing how some peoples own particular footwork seems to mutate into...}

Personally, I think a lot of it depends on the experience of the partners.
If it's an experienced lead dancing with an inexperienced follow. I believe the onus is 100% on the experienced lead to adapt.

Personally I don't think this is true for inexperienced follows, but for every follow, no matter the experiance.

[spindr]

"Strong lead" generally means that the teacher doesn't understand the lead/follow requirements for a particular move -- but has found that with enough ooomph they can get to the end relatively successfully.

Last week, did the same movement in two different classes (one salsa, one jive) -- basically, rotating the follower on the spot out of a "barrier" position. The salsa teacher spent 10-15 mins explaining how followers should dance the rotation, etc., etc. and that leaders should use a nice clear lead -- the jive teacher just said words to the effect of "Alright lads, give it a bit of welly and the lady will get round".

SpinDr

[Andy McGregor]

A while ago I set my class what I called the handsfree challenge. I explained that the guys had to lead the lady by miming the moves and the lady had to keep her hand near they guys and follow the move he was leading. Almost everybody got it. The connection was a visual one rather than a physical one and people seemed to get a much clearer idea of the way the lead works.

Although it can't be taken literally, I tell the lady that she should offer the guy the weight of her hand, not the weight of her body. I tell the guys that they should lead the lady's hand and the rest of the lady will follow.

In workshops I tell the guys to put their hand on top of the lady's hand, just touching. The objective for the lady is to keep their hand in touch with the guy's - that also works really well at producing a feel for indication leads rather than strength leads that compel the lady to move into a position.

[Andy McGregor]

"Alright lads, give it a bit of welly and the lady will get round".

SpinDr

At a class I visited recently the teacher said "shove the lady out and then drag her back in again"

[wigglebum]

lol, I would definately ignore my ceroc spin example. Completely incorrect.

Do I dare give another example! lol

How about a sway. I assume a clear lead would be a slight pull and twist of the wrist. If someone said a strong or firm lead. I wouldnt pull and twist the wrist hard because I know it would hurt. But I dont stop for a few seconds and think "Wait a sec....... This might hurt"

Oddly enough though have seen men nearly pull and snap an arm off.

It seems to me I dont know when to shut up. lol