"Strong Lead"

[jemessex]

Left to my own devises I would dance in circles as it's the way ceroc teaches and I haven't tried any other classes.

is it??..cannot remember being taught going round in circles

[mabraham]

It's telling that the pretzel is taught with a clear signal – waving your hand behind your back – to get your follower to step to your left. It's even more telling that most of the regular Ceroc-taught moves where the lady needs to step to your left incorporate the pretzel signal.

That signal isn't needed. If the follow is not anticipating a particular direction for the lead to lead them along (or if she must have one, straight forwards), then it's easy enough to lead her to the left side of your body. It'll probably take some time for the follow to learn to follow that, if she hasn't seen it before. The lead will also need to move off the original line in the same way they might for moves where the follow passes down their right-hand side.

Amusingly, leads often take ages to learn to actually lead a Sway around Australia, because a commonly-taught signal (left hand palm up at left hip) magically gets the lady to step in and turn herself. Presto! Instant non-dancing! Such signals do serve a purpose in the learning process, however.

[Astro]

is it??..cannot remember being taught going round in circles

Please disregard my posts on this thread.

I haven't a clue what I'm talking about.

[Ghost]

Please disregard my posts on this thread.

I haven't a clue what I'm talking about.

It's worth noting that your posts have value as
"I'm a follow and this is what I believe" as other follows may well feel the same.

It lets leads reconsider how they're leading. Chef seemed quite surprised that you felt forced into slots for example so that's probably useful for him to know.

[Chef]

It's worth noting that your posts have value as
"I'm a follow and this is what I believe" as other follows may well feel the same.

It lets leads reconsider how they're leading. Chef seemed quite surprised that you felt forced into slots for example so that's probably useful for him to know.

Astros posts have value, like most peoples, in that they promote discussion and they are not about trivial things (ie they are about dancing). Sometimes I have expressed my view about something on the forum and as a result of the subsequent discussion have changed my mind about something, and as a result have changed the way I do something.

Discussion is always good but it doesn't always make me change my mind.

I was surprised and dismayed that Astro felt forced into dancing in a slot when dancing with me. A lot of the things I want to do in dance either only work, or IMHO, work better in a slot. Because of this I try to lead my follower to where I want her to be so the whole thing works. If my follower goes somewhere other than where I was leading her then I have to abandon what I was going to do, often completely because I try to fit the moves to the music and the music won't wait for a second try. I then have to come up with something to salvage the situation and hopefully still fit the music.

While this is happening I am looking around for available space to lead my follower into without danger to her. I often have to bend the shape of a move to get the follower to exit into that safe space.

I thought I was doing that reasonably well but since Astro feels that I am forcing her to go in a direction that I want her to go in then I am obviously not doing it as well as I had hoped.

I am not sure what I should do now. Should I get followers to go where I want them too with them feeling forced or just let them go where they want to so they don't feel forced or constrained.

[Gadget]

...I am not sure what I should do now. Should I get followers to go where I want them too with them feeling forced or just let them go where they want to so they don't feel forced or constrained.

You should let them think that they are going where they want to, but are actually leading them where you want them to be.

I'm sure it's the escence of what Franck teaches - you close off the options you don't want them to take and leave them with a path of least resistance to follow.

{...If you get it to work, then please let me know: I've been trying for years }

[Ghost]

I am not sure what I should do now. Should I get followers to go where I want them too with them feeling forced or just let them go where they want to so they don't feel forced or constrained.

Reminded me of something Gadget said ages ago and thankfully he's recently re-said it to save me searching for it

I used to be a domineering lead who would only give the follower space when I felt it fitted what we were dancing to. <snip>I used to dance like this: My partner is a prop that I know all the leads and manipulations to get them to move how I want, when I want, where I want.
Nothing really wrong with that

You should let them think that they are going where they want to, but are actually leading them where you want them to be.

I'm sure it's the escence of what Franck teaches - you close off the options you don't want them to take and leave them with a path of least resistance to follow.

I'm guessing this is what Chef's doing - I doubt he's manhandling Astro, so I'm wondering if this still feels forced? Like being trapped in a maze - you want to get out but can't figure out how to do it.

{...If you get it to work, then please let me know: I've been trying for years }

It's much easier if you pull faces at them ; it distracts them from thinking about all those other pesky options they have

The alternative option is that some women, (particularly the WCSer I'd guess) are quite happy dancing in a slot. So lead your first movement slotted, but leave enough space that they can go off it they want to. If they stay in the slot do what you normally do.

If they go off, you have two choices.
1. Decide that the extra skill / musicality etc you bring to a dance while dancing slotted outweighs them feeling "forced" into a slot

2. Dance non-slotted. You'll be deliberately doing it, so it won't be a surprise when they go off.


(Just as an aside if anyone else wants to mulit-quote from different threads, you need to scroll down and click on the very small option after you hit quote )

[TA Guy]

If they go off, you have two choices.
1. Decide that the extra skill / musicality etc you bring to a dance while dancing slotted outweighs them feeling "forced" into a slot

2. Dance non-slotted. You'll be deliberately doing it, so it won't be a surprise when they go off.

You should let them think that they are going where they want to, but are actually leading them where you want them to be.

In theory, the third alternative, Gadgets solution, some kind of mysterious Godlike leading where you let a partner think that they are going where they want to, but are actually going where you want them sounds fantastic (if a little X-filey ), but with certain partners, it is exceedingly difficult to do consistantly without using a fair amount of force as was reported by several in another thread (the 'slotted V non-slotted' one I think). I'm not saying it couldn't be done, but, phew, Godlike lead wouldn't cover it Certainly beyond my abilities with some partners.

Styles do clash. If one partner wants to dance slotted, and one partner wants to dance non-slotted, then in a dance of equals, you have a problem. It needs a solution and in a perfect world, it seems to me both partners would give and take a little to find a middle ground solution. Unfort, it's not a perfect world of course and a follower, for whatever reason, might have a definite preference, so....

I can only speak for myself, but number one is just not an option, 'forcing' was just not how I was 'brought up' to lead.
Personally, I get great pleasure if I manage to give a follow a 'good' dance, and again, speaking for myself, it means not forcing the follower, but adapting (to the best of my ability) to the follower. You might consider that 'giving in', and just dancing the way the follow wants, but I don't, I take the view that MJ is a broad church with many styles, and I just consider it not getting hung up on one style.
I'm not saying that anyone in this thread doesn't observe this rule, and I know it's a bit trite, but 'the follower comes first' was the way I was taught. If I put the follower first and she gets a 'good' dance, the rewards (in that the follow has a better dance, and I take pleasure in that if it happens!) far outweigh the downside for me.

There is a fourth option, however unpaletable, just dance with people you know conform to your individual style requirements.

[Gadget]

In theory, the third alternative, Gadgets solution, some kind of mysterious Godlike leading where you let a partner think that they are going where they want to, but are actually going where you want them sounds fantastic (if a little X-filey ), but with certain partners, it is exceedingly difficult to do consistantly without using a fair amount of force...

Try standing infront of where they want to go or having them come against a block/stop where they wouldn't expect one. - give them the rope and let them see how far they can tangle themselves... I can be evil to dance with sometimes

... of course other times I end up flattened