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Thread: "Strong Lead"

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    Question "Strong Lead"

    Inspired from this post...
    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer View Post
    Well out the 15 lessons I've had 7 beginner and 8 intermediate. The teachers have never said anything on following, they just keep going on about having a strong lead.
    ... and some observations I've made over the last wee while:

    There seems to be a trend (only over the last year I would say) of teachers emphisising the forcefullness of leading rather than the precision: lots of words and actions and encouragement to get the leads to physically drag their partners into line and move them where/when desired.
    I'm not sure if this is me trying to get more precision into my lead that has thrown it into contrast, whether it is a trend, part of training, or what: it may just be me.

    I'm not a follow, so I don't know if there is any noticable change in the over all 'strength' of the leads being given. Am I being over critical? Are there more 'yankers' than there used to be? Are the followers developing new skills to negate any 'yanking'?

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    Re: "Strong Lead"

    IMO the use ofthe word 'strong' is a mistake.
    'Clear' and 'precise' work better.

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    Re: "Strong Lead"

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    There seems to be a trend (only over the last year I would say) of teachers emphisising the forcefullness of leading rather than the precision: lots of words and actions and encouragement to get the leads to physically drag their partners into line and move them where/when desired.
    Completely the opposite in London, from what I've seen - you used to hear "strong lead" 5 years ago, but not nearly so much now. (You still hear "firm lead" which I also don't like, but it's better than strong).

    Quote Originally Posted by Aleks
    Clear' and 'precise' work better.
    And that's very much what I see these days. (Of course, most of the classes I see now are done by the likes of Amir, so...)

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: "Strong Lead"

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    Completely the opposite in London, from what I've seen - you used to hear "strong lead" 5 years ago
    And 15 years ago, come to that - Mike Ellard used to emphasize this quite a lot.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    And that's very much what I see these days. (Of course, most of the classes I see now are done by the likes of Amir, so...)
    Yeah, we're probably totally the wrong people to ask what the general trend is for teaching in Ceroc classes, as we tend to select our teachers.

    Kicca talks about clarity if that helps?

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    Not a spoon! Lou's Avatar
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    Re: "Strong Lead"

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    Completely the opposite in London, from what I've seen - you used to hear "strong lead" 5 years ago, but not nearly so much now. (You still hear "firm lead" which I also don't like, but it's better than strong)....
    And that's very much what I see these days. (Of course, most of the classes I see now are done by the likes of Amir, so...)
    Definitely depends on the teacher. There are still plenty in the London area who use words like "Pull the lady into your side", "Push down hard with your hand to spin...", etc. This choice of words still encourages overly strong leading, IMO.

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    Re: "Strong Lead"

    Quote Originally Posted by Lou View Post
    Definitely depends on the teacher. There are still plenty in the London area who use words like "Pull the lady into your side", "Push down hard with your hand to spin...", etc. This choice of words still encourages overly strong leading, IMO.
    In his online newsletter Howard Temple, teacher at Ealing, London, advises dancers to only do drops and seducers with people you know. Now that's progress.

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: "Strong Lead"

    Quote Originally Posted by Lou View Post
    Definitely depends on the teacher. There are still plenty in the London area who use words like "Pull the lady into your side", "Push down hard with your hand to spin...", etc. This choice of words still encourages overly strong leading, IMO.
    Hmmm... So what alternative wordage would you use to "push" when teaching - for example - the push-spin?

    I'm actually not worried so much about "push", it's "pull" that's dangerous to me. Let's face it, followers can always dampen a push using standard spaghetti-arm technique, but pulling is more dangerous because arms don't stretch

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    Re: "Strong Lead"

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Hmmm... So what alternative wordage would you use to "push" when teaching - for example - the push-spin?

    I'm actually not worried so much about "push", it's "pull" that's dangerous to me. Let's face it, followers can always dampen a push using standard spaghetti-arm technique, but pulling is more dangerous because arms don't stretch
    I try to use 'lead' or 'guide' or 'invite' whenever I can. Though, occasionally 'pull' does come out by accident

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: "Strong Lead"

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp View Post
    I try to use 'lead' or 'guide' or 'invite' whenever I can. Though, occasionally 'pull' does come out by accident
    Yes, accidental pulling is a curse innit.

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    Re: "Strong Lead"

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Hmmm... So what alternative wordage would you use to "push" when teaching - for example - the push-spin?
    I wouldn't - it was the "hard" bit I don't like. I noticed a lot when I first started going to classes in London. Maybe they don't use such strong language in Bristol...

    I like Trampy's wording. Very elegant, mate.

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    Re: "Strong Lead"

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    There seems to be a trend (only over the last year I would say) of teachers emphisising the forcefullness of leading rather than the precision: lots of words and actions and encouragement to get the leads to physically drag their partners into line and move them where/when desired.
    A number of beginner leads start off being gentle to the point of not leading. Certainly that was a flaw of mine when I started. So emphasising force is probably a good idea at that level. By contrast, while there are some folks who use excessive force, they tend to be an exception rather than a norm. I think it's better to deal with them on a one-to-one basis. A bit of unsolicited feedback works wonders.

    (if you think I'm using too much force, I encourage you to tell me)

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    Re: "Strong Lead"

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post

    (if you think I'm using too much force, I encourage you to tell me)
    May the force be with you.

    sorry, couldn't resist.

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    Re: "Strong Lead"

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    A number of beginner leads start off being gentle to the point of not leading. Certainly that was a flaw of mine when I started. So emphasising force is probably a good idea at that level. By contrast, while there are some folks who use excessive force, they tend to be an exception rather than a norm. I think it's better to deal with them on a one-to-one basis. A bit of unsolicited feedback works wonders.

    (if you think I'm using too much force, I encourage you to tell me)
    I'm sorry, but I whole heartedly, and vehemently disagree!!!!

    What's the danger with too little force/pressure? The lead might feel a little unsure or jelly-like - not a great dance experience.

    Too much is, on the other hand, potentially a health and safety issue. Immediate and painful physical damage can ensue, or else, with repetitive moves, an early onset of arthritis, due to the constant jarring of joints. Either of which, I would wish on noone.

    Far safer, in my opinion, to err on the side of physical safety on this point.

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    Re: "Strong Lead"

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Hans View Post
    I'm sorry, but I whole heartedly, and vehemently disagree!!!!
    I actually think you're actually whole heartedly, and vehemently agreeing.
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Re: "Strong Lead"

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Hans View Post
    What's the danger with too little force/pressure? The lead might feel a little unsure or jelly-like - not a great dance experience.
    Pretty much, though some are worse than that. These people are in a dance class to become better at dancing, so the teacher should help them to become better at dancing by giving appropriate advice. This means using simple words like "pull" rather than sophisticated concepts like "invite".

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Hans View Post
    Too much is, on the other hand, potentially a health and safety issue. Immediate and painful physical damage can ensue, or else, with repetitive moves, an early onset of arthritis, due to the constant jarring of joints. Either of which, I would wish on noone.
    I agree with that. However, the number of leaders who are forceful enough to cause serious damage is extremely low, frequently zero. Therefore it is better for the teacher to help these leaders in a one-to-one basis. If sie tells the entire class to lead more lightly, then that will be inappropriate advice for 99% of the class, and the 1% to whom it applies will probably ignore hir. It is also good, as I mentioned, for followers to provide unsolicited negative feedback.

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    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: "Strong Lead"

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    I agree with that. However, the number of leaders who are forceful enough to cause serious damage is extremely low, frequently zero. Therefore it is better for the teacher to help these leaders in a one-to-one basis. If sie tells the entire class to lead more lightly, then that will be inappropriate advice for 99% of the class, and the 1% to whom it applies will probably ignore hir. It is also good, as I mentioned, for followers to provide unsolicited negative feedback.
    Do you have any basis for you 99:1 ratio? I would have said the correct ratio was something like 1:9 the other way - I think the vast majority of leads use too much force. Certainly it's a common complaint amongst the high-level follows I know, while I very rarely hear complaints about a lead not using enough force.

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    Re: "Strong Lead"

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    Certainly it's a common complaint amongst the high-level follows I know, while I very rarely hear complaints about a lead not using enough force.


    Very true. Good followers see the lead more as an indication of what to do than an energy source to help them execute the move. With good followers you can lead with no force at all and minimal contact if you wish.

    Many followers cannot keep their balance, cannot turn or spin on the spot and need some cooperation to start and execute the move. Even then, imo a leader's job is to coordinate his actions to match the follower's in doing something smoothly and not to force her to do the move as it is supposed to be done and on time.

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    Re: "Strong Lead"

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post

    This means using simple words like "pull" rather than sophisticated concepts like "invite".
    OK, so lets use simple pronouns like 'his' or 'her' rather than artificial constructs that seek to blur the sexual divide. Most of us are one or the other and would not wish it otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post

    It is also good, as I mentioned, for followers to provide unsolicited negative feedback.
    ....... Fair enough; but my impaired hearing is concentrating on the music and your bleating words do not register.

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    Re: "Strong Lead"

    Quote Originally Posted by Raul View Post

    Very true. Good followers see the lead more as an indication of what to do than an energy source to help them execute the move. With good followers you can lead with no force at all and minimal contact if you wish.
    Yes, I can agree with that.

    I do not look upon followers as advanced or experienced; merely as as followers, good or better.

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    Re: "Strong Lead"

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    Do you have any basis for you 99:1 ratio?
    Just my limited experience following in beginner classes and talking to others who do likewise. I should have made clear that I'm talking about beginners of <12 weeks, though. At higher levels, the proportions are probably different, as you say.

    High-level followers do tend to prefer lighter leads, but that's preference, not health and safety. Beginner leads first need to learn to dance well with beginners and intermediates. Dancing well with advanced follows can be deferred for a few months, I believe.

    This suggests simpler language in beginner classes, with more nuanced terms like "indicate" used more at intermediate level.

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitebeard View Post
    OK, so lets use simple pronouns like 'his' or 'her' rather than artificial constructs that seek to blur the sexual divide.
    Nah, I'm happy with my choice of language in that post. We've discussed this before.

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