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Thread: What if. . . ?

  1. #21
    Registered User stewart38's Avatar
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    Re: What if. . . ?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post

    Frankly, I think there are too many big autumn weekenders at the moment - in the space of 3 months (Sept - Nov) you have:
    • Southport
    • Bliss
    • Breeze
    • Camber
    • Scarborough
    • Splash
    • Blaze


    The market simply isn't big enough for all of these to be sold out - look at the recent spate of "Breeze chalets for sale" ads, for example.


    That would seem to be a good plan - it'll give a bit more breathing space between the two Ceroc weekenders in the South.


    Indeed. If it offers high-quality product, it'll continue to be successful.


    Pontins are the best choice for large-scale weekenders - I don't think there are that many other types of venue that could work for weekenders, Centre Park's far too expensive.
    Cant dispute nos were down on Bliss how much that has to do with Breeze or the booking system I guess we may no more post Breeze ?

    Id guess maybe 200 of 1000 punters at Bliss were at Southport, wouldnt know of course but largely a different crowd so think location is important


    ie put 10 events on in scotland not going to effect people on the south coast and their choices


    Scarborough/Splash are not Pontins but highly sucessful weekenders (500 + i say is large )

    SWISH next feb 5 star hotel etc. Almost sold out

    Scarborough is book in hotels again very popular

    The ceroc booking system does itself no favours and im sure that will change next year or be altered for Breeze

  2. #22
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    Re: What if. . . ?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    I suspect if this did happen, then Ceroc itself would offer different products aimed at different markets, so you'd still get varied MJ.

    In fact, I know this would happen, because it's already happening.

    Dancing isn't mandatory (for most people), it's a luxury - you have to offer value and quality or people simply won't come. So that's always going to be an incentive driving any dance business.

    If Ceroc ran the MJ world exclusively, then they'd still have to offer variety and quality - if they didn't, their business would suffer.

    So if Ceroc want to offer varied MJ why do they only have their teachers teaching? granted they wouldnt want anyone elses teachers, that would be stupid for a buisiness but i found their weekender very similar to a Ceroc Freestyle EG Daventry.

    JA on the other hand have no teachers of their own but do everything in their power to get the punters the best on offer, Teachers from all over the world, champions, independent teachers ect.

    Given the option what/who would you rather spend your weekend learning from?

    imo Ceroc do not offer variance in their mj, thats becouse all their teachers do the same teacher training. In classes that is very important but a weekender needs to be different.

  3. #23
    Registered User Lynn's Avatar
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    Re: What if. . . ?

    Comments about teachers just show that we all want different things from weekenders. While I enjoy the teachers at JA events, very high standard etc, there are also some great Ceroc teachers and the classes at Blaze were excellent.

    For me its things like chilled daytime dancing and general vibe, that I go for.

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    Re: What if. . . ?

    Why would Ceroc want to take over JA?

    In business, it is good to have good competition as it help to increase awareness to the product and keep the customers interested. However good and varied Ceroc gets, there is always the need for dancers to see if there is extra somewhere else otherwise they get bored with MJ. If JA provides that successfully for weekender without being too much of a thorn in the side to Ceroc, everyone is happy.

    If Ceroc were to take over JA, chances are someone else will take its place as the "alternative MJ thrills provider" and we would be back in the same situation. It makes sense for Ceroc to take over all the lame ducks but however tempting fot it to buy out the main "Pain in the Neck" competitors, it suits all parties to maintain the statuo quo, provide wider choice to the punters and grow together.

    IMO JA currently fulfils the role of the alternative weekender provider in England and Jive Nation is the alternative weekday competitor in London. I also think that the Utopia concept works well and that the different name has been a well calculated move to distinguish it as an alternative to Ceroc.

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    Re: What if. . . ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Raul View Post
    Why would Ceroc want to take over JA?

    In business, it is good to have good competition as it help to increase awareness to the product and keep the customers interested. However good and varied Ceroc gets, there is always the need for dancers to see if there is extra somewhere else otherwise they get bored with MJ. If JA provides that successfully for weekender without being too much of a thorn in the side to Ceroc, everyone is happy.

    If Ceroc were to take over JA, chances are someone else will take its place as the "alternative MJ thrills provider" and we would be back in the same situation. It makes sense for Ceroc to take over all the lame ducks but however tempting fot it to buy out the main "Pain in the Neck" competitors, it suits all parties to maintain the statuo quo, provide wider choice to the punters and grow together.

    IMO JA currently fulfils the role of the alternative weekender provider in England and Jive Nation is the alternative weekday competitor in London. I also think that the Utopia concept works well and that the different name has been a well calculated move to distinguish it as an alternative to Ceroc.


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    Registered User sidney's Avatar
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    Re: What if. . . ?

    I think there are far to many weekenders now and for me it takes it away the big build up and looking forward to going to about one ever couple of months or so instead of going ever two weeks being knackered in the week having to recover for the next one plus for me is the expence so I have done the Camber and Bogner ones in the past which were fine but to far to travel for me now just for a weekend so given a choice I stick with JA. Has no one ever throught of Butlins in Skegness for a weekender as that would be good for the midlands and the people from the north as there is plenty in the south already.

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    Registered User Lynn's Avatar
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    Re: What if. . . ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Raul View Post
    IMO JA currently fulfils the role of the alternative weekender provider in England and Jive Nation is the alternative weekday competitor in London. I also think that the Utopia concept works well and that the different name has been a well calculated move to distinguish it as an alternative to Ceroc.
    Interesting that people think of JA as the alternative when JA, Jivetime and others were running weekenders before Ceroc joined the market.

    IMO Jivetime set the pace, JA raised the bar, and Ceroc then joined in an already existing and growing market and have overdone it a bit with too many new weekenders too quickly.

  8. #28
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: What if. . . ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Achaeco View Post
    So if Ceroc want to offer varied MJ why do they only have their teachers teaching?
    Yeah, I agree that's not great - similarly for DJs. The classes do look a bit homogenous.

    On the other hand, they're starting to import talent (e.g. Lucky Skillen and Ruby), so hopefully they'll get more flexible as they go. Plus, they don't always use Ceroc teachers - e.g. Breeze has David and Lily teaching, Blaze has Amir, and so on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Achaeco View Post
    Given the option what/who would you rather spend your weekend learning from?
    Frankly, given the normal 2,000 attendees at a weekender class, it almost doesn't matter who teaches it, you're not going to learn a lot.

    What we need is a set of, ooh let's call them "masterclasses" with small numbers at weekenders. Shame Ceroc aren't innovating and doing that...

    Quote Originally Posted by Achaeco View Post
    imo Ceroc do not offer variance in their mj, thats becouse all their teachers do the same teacher training. In classes that is very important but a weekender needs to be different.
    Again, I notice that Franck Pauly and Amir Giles are both teaching at Blaze II. If they'd got DavidB as well, that's pretty much the bingo set, it's difficult to see how you can get better MJ teachers than that.

    Unless you know of some mysterious superstar MJ teachers that for some reason are hiding their lights under bushels?

    Blimey, I'm turning into a Ceroc defender - I've been assimilated!

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    Re: What if. . . ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn View Post
    Interesting that people think of JA as the alternative when JA, Jivetime and others were running weekenders before Ceroc joined the market.


    oo oo

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    Registered User stewart38's Avatar
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    Re: What if. . . ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Raul View Post
    IMO JA currently fulfils the role of the alternative weekender provider in England and Jive Nation is the alternative weekday competitor in London. I also think that the Utopia concept works well and that the different name has been a well calculated move to distinguish it as an alternative to Ceroc.
    Jive nation doesnt get much of a mention on this forum

    Ive been a few times and loved it plus the circle teaching method (for smaller groups)

    Think its aimed at a slightly younger crowd

  11. #31
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    Re: What if. . . ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn View Post
    Interesting that people think of JA as the alternative when JA, Jivetime and others were running weekenders before Ceroc joined the market.

    IMO Jivetime set the pace, JA raised the bar, and Ceroc then joined in an already existing and growing market and have overdone it a bit with too many new weekenders too quickly.
    You are correct in what you say about the historical facts.

    My post is in the context of Ceroc taking over the world or not.

  12. #32
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: What if. . . ?

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    Jive nation doesnt get much of a mention on this forum
    That's coz we're censoring it! Any sign of anyone mentioning it, and we delete the post, the thread around it, and anyone who posted on it.

    Or, possibly, not many forumites post about it.

    But I'm going with the Evil Moderator Censorship theory myself.

  13. #33
    Registered User stewart38's Avatar
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    Re: What if. . . ?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    What we need is a set of, ooh let's call them "masterclasses" with small numbers at weekenders. Shame Ceroc aren't innovating and doing that...
    I think they are see below but there not getting the credit for it


    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Personally, I'm probably more pro-Ceroc* than I was a year or two ago, when I was actually doing some teaching for Ceroc. But my feelings are changing mainly because I think Ceroc are now doing a lot of good things (Utopia, weekenders, WCS, focus workshops and so on), which they weren't back then, and they deserve credit for doing that. In general, I think Ceroc are raising the game for people's dancing, and I think that's a good thing.

  14. #34
    Registered User frodo's Avatar
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    Re: What if. . . ?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post

    Frankly, I think there are too many big autumn weekenders at the moment - in the space of 3 months (Sept - Nov) you have:
    • Southport
    • Bliss
    • Breeze
    • Camber
    • Scarborough
    • Splash
    • Blaze


    The market simply isn't big enough for all of these to be sold out - look at the recent spate of "Breeze chalets for sale" ads, for example.
    It is probably pushing it to call Blaze and Scarborough 'big', and Splash is a somewhat different in nature.

    So that makes only 4 conventional big weekenders in 3 months, which are reasonably well separated in either space or time.


    The reality may be that it is an increasingly small proportion of a growing total market who would consider distant weekenders. Local weekenders also require less in the way of days off work.


    So it might be better to ask:
    • Are there too many in the South East ?

    • Are there too many in the North West ?

    etc.

  15. #35
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: What if. . . ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn View Post
    'Breakdown and beat' - sorry but that just pathetic. What a poor way to do business, what a fast way to lose respect.

    I know that some local organisers have in the past resorted to these sorts of tactics but I'd be very saddened to see them come into play on the weekender scene.
    Don't know about 'poor way to do business' .. it IS business. My experience is that punters soon enough forget what has happened and will carry on. Look at the mass desertion from Ceroc after the 'Ceroc DJs only DJ for Ceroc' debacle I know where you are coming from and I feel the same way but the reality is very different.


    Quote Originally Posted by Achaeco View Post
    I can think of two who if they had too and merged or worked together would have enough fire to take on Ceroc, then if you add the smaller ones, how big would it get?

    People underestimate Blitz and Jive Addiction.
    Can't comment about JA, but Blitz is not a good example. Its half what it was a few years ago and still very much under pressure ... more form the independents than Ceroc. Want to guess how many new instructors Blitz trained over the last year? You may forgive Ceroc for not working with Blitz. Don't forget they may well regard that Blitz acted unethically when it broke away ... bit hard to forgive?


    Quote Originally Posted by Achaeco View Post
    Also would you be happy if Ceroc did try to rule the world by buying out everyone? surly the more varied MJ the better.
    Definitely not. I've always argued that a monopoly does not benefit the market. HOWEVER, some of the competitors have made it easy for Ceroc by fighting amongst themselves and providing a poor product. Note I say some, not all.

  16. #36
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    Re: What if. . . ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    Don't know about 'poor way to do business' .. it IS business. My experience is that punters soon enough forget what has happened and will carry on.

    Punters don't care about the "bolotics", they just want a good dance experience. As do all of us, fundamentally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    Definitely not. I've always argued that a monopoly does not benefit the market.
    A bit strong IMO.

    I'd say that if an organisation had a MJ monopoly, it would be in a position to abuse that monopoly to a degree. However, it would also be in a position to create standards to a degree. So the benefits might outweight the drawbacks,

    Also, remember that there's a massive non-MJ partner-dance world out there, which might well be growing faster than Ceroc at the moment. If Ceroc did suddenly dumb-down the MJ environment, there are always other alternatives.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    HOWEVER, some of the competitors have made it easy for Ceroc by fighting amongst themselves and providing a poor product. Note I say some, not all.
    Absolutely
    Note how, for example, Jive Nation and Mariachi have made zero effort to be affiliated with Le Roc or any other dance organisations. Hell, they haven't even been that interested in the MJDA forum.

    In my experience, independents have much bigger egos than Ceroc teachers, and are much less willing to work together.

  17. #37
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    Re: What if. . . ?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post

    In my experience, independents have much bigger egos than Ceroc teachers, and are much less willing to work together.
    Big fish in little pond vs Small fish in big pond syndrome

  18. #38
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    Re: What if. . . ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    Don't know about 'poor way to do business' .. it IS business. My experience is that punters soon enough forget what has happened and will carry on. Look at the mass desertion from Ceroc after the 'Ceroc DJs only DJ for Ceroc' debacle I know where you are coming from and I feel the same way but the reality is very different.
    Not entirely. In the same way that a business or organisation can build up customer loyalty, so these things can erode it.

    Yes, people still go along/use the product/service, but if they have lost respect for how a business has been run, they are very easy to tempt away by a competitor. And they are less likely to recommend to their friends etc.

    I'm not saying they all care about the politics, but you start to 'breakdown' and 'take out' competition in an unpleasant way (and I'm not referring to any actual events on the dance scene here) people do start to get fed up.

    The only way that I've seen that organisations or individuals can get this to work is to have a good through flow of new dancers who don't know about the history, but you lose the more experienced dancers who are lured away by your competition. So you shift your focus to new customers rather than building customer loyalty. As you say, just a different way to do business.

  19. #39
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: What if. . . ?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    In my experience, independents have much bigger egos than Ceroc teachers.
    WHAT?? There is something in the known Universe BIGGER than a Ceroc teacher's ego?? Surely you blaspheme

    Actually ... now that you come to mention it ... it so true its not funny

  20. #40
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: What if. . . ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    WHAT?? There is something in the known Universe BIGGER than a Ceroc teacher's ego?? Surely you blaspheme

    Actually ... now that you come to mention it ... it so true its not funny
    It'd be lovely to see some of the larger independents working together - it's in their own self-interest to do so in the long-term, and I think it'd definitely provide some benefits to us punters. For example, by making Le Roc a more credible alternative to Ceroc, providing nationwide competition and so on.

    But the phrase "snowball in hell" springs to mind.

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