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Thread: Nelson Mandela

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    Nelson Mandela

    I was listening to a thing on Radio 2 about voting for your icon of the last 40 years (being the 40th anniversary of Radio 2).
    Sir Terry Wogan won it (too right!), but also in the running were The Beatles, Princess Diana and Nelson Mandela.

    Lots of people were raving about how wonderful Nelson Mandela was and what a terrible time he had and how he achieved so much with peaceful protest.
    It made me wonder if maybe Gerry Adams (former IRA) should have been nominated?
    I don't know if everyone has forgotten or if Mr. Mandela's press office have done an outstanding job of hiding it, but Nelson Mandela was a commander of the terrorist military wing of the ANC (African National Congress) and was responsible for the death of many innocent people, including black Africans.

    Should we forget the atrocities because of all the good he's done since?

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    Re: Nelson Mandela

    Christ, I thought he'd died when I read this thread title.

    Note to self: must not use Forum to get news information.

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Nelson Mandela

    Oh right, thread topic, yes.

    Gerry Adams? No, the man's a slimy politician, always has been.

    But Martin McGunness, in 20 years' time, maybe. Why not? I mean, he's been a key player in bringing peace to Northern Ireland, isn't that a Good Thing?

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    Re: Nelson Mandela

    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    but Nelson Mandela was a commander of the terrorist military wing of the ANC (African National Congress) and was responsible for the death of many innocent people, including black Africans
    What else should he have done under the circustances? Isn't there such a thing as a 'Just War'?

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    Re: Nelson Mandela

    Quote Originally Posted by Isis View Post
    What else should he have done under the circustances? Isn't there such a thing as a 'Just War'?
    Hmmmm ... like the PLO, IRA, Basque Separists, Jewish Liberation army, Red Bridage, North Vietnamese, Nazi Germany (liberating Germany) ... oh, and of course Taliban, Al Quaida etc. "on man terrorist is another's freedom fighter" etc etc. Sometimes you can't just sit on the fence on these things.

    By the way, fair few people have achieved radical change without terrorism .... Ghandi and MLK for example.

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    Re: Nelson Mandela

    Quote Originally Posted by Isis View Post
    What else should he have done under the circumstances? Isn't there such a thing as a 'Just War'?
    The only difference between terrorism and a 'Just War' is which side of the fence you happen to be on at the time.
    Is the death of innocent civilians ever just?

    More importantly, I'm not criticizing his actions, I'm questioning whether what he has done since is so good that we should forget what he did in the past?

    Don't get me started on Martin McGuiness.

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    Re: Nelson Mandela

    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    The only difference between terrorism and a 'Just War' is which side of the fence you happen to be on at the time.
    Yes. One man's Terrorist is another man's Freedom Fighter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    Is the death of innocent civilians ever just?
    Maybe - if it saves more innocent lives in the long run. Although I doubt I'd think so if I was one of the innocent civilians sacrificed! I thought the ANC targeted power supplies etc. to cause disruption rather than target people, or is that just the sugar coated version of events?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    More importantly, I'm not criticizing his actions, I'm questioning whether what he has done since is so good that we should forget what he did in the past?
    It shouldn't be covered up or swept under the carpet but I don't think it diminishes the good he has done. It's not where you start it's where you finish, surely?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    Don't get me started on Martin McGuiness.
    OK

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    Re: Nelson Mandela

    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    ...but Nelson Mandela was a commander of the terrorist military wing of the ANC (African National Congress) and was responsible for the death of many innocent people, including black Africans.
    Can you cite evidence of the second part, Gav? From what I've read, Umkhonto we Sizwe (the paramilitary wing of the ANC) resorted to more general terrorist activities in the 80s, long after Mandela's incarceration (and of course, long after it became clear the UK and US governments weren't interested in helping end apartheid). During his short period in charge (61-63), exclusively government installations were targeted.

    Plus of course, the apartheid regime never killed any innocent civilians at all (the link points to precisely the kind of incident Mandela expected to happen if the ANC had been forced into guerrilla warfare).

    Otherwise, you are Dick Cheney and I claim my 5 pounds...

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    Re: Nelson Mandela

    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    ...I don't know if everyone has forgotten or if Mr. Mandela's press office have done an outstanding job of hiding it, but Nelson Mandela was a commander of the terrorist military wing of the ANC (African National Congress) and was responsible for the death of many innocent people, including black Africans.

    Should we forget the atrocities because of all the good he's done since?
    Source? Mandela does not mention any deaths in attacks he organised. He does mention being ashamed because he shot a sparrow.

    In planning the direction and form that MK would take, we considered four types of violent activities: sabotage, guerrilla warfare, terrorism and open revolution. For a small and fledgling army, open revolution was inconceivable. Terrorism inevitably reflected poorly on those who used it, undermining any public support it might otherwise garner. Guerrilla warfare was a possibility, but since the ANC had been reluctant to embrace violence at all, it made sense to start with the form of violence that inflicted the least harm against individuals: sabotage.
    Because it did not involve loss of life, it offered the best hope for reconciliation among the races afterwards. We did not want to start a blood-feud between white and black. Animosity between Afrikaner and Englishman was still sharp fifty years after the Anglo-Boer war; what would race relations be like between white and black if we provoked a civil war? Sabotage had the added virtue of requiring the least manpower.
    Our strategy was to make selective forays against military installations, power plants, telephone lines and transportation links; targets that would not only hamper the military effectiveness of the state, but frighten National Party supporters, scare away foreign capital, and weaken the economy. This we hoped would bring the government to the bargaining table. Strict instructions were given to members of MK that we would countenance no loss of life. But if sabotage did not produce the results we wanted, we were prepared to move on to the next stage: guerrilla warfare and terrorism.
    Mandela claims that he commanded two attacks against installations before departing on a tour of nations garnering support. He was arrested on his return, tried, found guilty and imprisoned.

    He turned to acts against property after years of non-violence. He was charged with treason for these non-violent acts, which carried the death penalty. That case lasted years and resulted in a not guilty verdict. During the conduct of that trial the government opression increased. Armed police fired 700 rounds into a demonstrating crowd at Sharpeville, killing 29, mostly shot in the back. The injured did not all want to be counted.

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    Re: Nelson Mandela

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart M View Post
    Can you cite evidence of the second part, Gav?
    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    Source? Mandela does not mention any deaths in attacks he organised. He does mention being ashamed because he shot a sparrow.
    I owe you £5 then, because my source is an old friend who lived through that period and has told me many stories that never made it to the media for one reason or another and it would be difficult to get his direct input here. He tells stories of those same attacks that Mandela admits, but he remembers the rumours and stories at the time of innocent people killed and injured when homemade explosives has unexpected results and/or people happened to be where Mandela and his men weren't expecting them to be. He also tells stories of attacks that weren't high profile enough for the world's media to hear about.

    Maybe none of it was Mandela's fault. Maybe his local commanders got carried away, maybe acts were committed in the name of Umkhonto we Sizwe, as often happens in guerilla wars against the state, however, Mandela formed the organisation and encouraged violence against the state, so ultimately he must be held responsible.

    Just as the occasional terrible incident in Ireland, or related to the troubles in Ireland made it to the media, meanwhile 10 more were kept quiet (and I know that for fact). Maybe that made more more open to believing my friend's stories?

    Umkhonto we Sizwe, like most terrorist organisations in their infancy, kept few records and were never likely to record accidental victims. The government records of the time are unreliable at best. Reading about the world, Vol 2, amongst others, tell all they know for sure, but also make it quite clear that their description of events at the time are based on scarce and biased records.

    But, as I say, I can't cite written or net sources so maybe I should keep my opinion to myself?

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    Re: Nelson Mandela

    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    I owe you £5 then, because my source is an old friend who lived through that period and has told me many stories that never made it to the media for one reason or another and it would be difficult to get his direct input here. He tells stories of those same attacks that Mandela admits, but he remembers the rumours and stories at the time of innocent people killed and injured when homemade explosives has unexpected results and/or people happened to be where Mandela and his men weren't expecting them to be. He also tells stories of attacks that weren't high profile enough for the world's media to hear about.
    Hmmmm, without wishing to denigrate your source, it's all a bit hearsay isn't it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    Maybe none of it was Mandela's fault. Maybe his local commanders got carried away, maybe acts were committed in the name of Umkhonto we Sizwe, as often happens in guerilla wars against the state, however, Mandela formed the organisation and encouraged violence against the state, so ultimately he must be held responsible.
    That's a bit of a stretch too far for me - that level of extension of responsibility holds him to a God-like standard of control, over an organisation which by its nature had imperfect control and communications.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    Just as the occasional terrible incident in Ireland, or related to the troubles in Ireland made it to the media, meanwhile 10 more were kept quiet (and I know that for fact). Maybe that made more more open to believing my friend's stories?
    I've a reasonable amount of personal experience of the Norn Irn situation myself, and I also agree that for every 1 news-worthy incident, there were hundreds or thousands of minor things - bullets sent through the post, "evictions", and so on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    But, as I say, I can't cite written or net sources so maybe I should keep my opinion to myself?
    There are a lot of things one can criticize Mandela for - for example, his failure to establish a strong multi-party democracy, his hand-picking of a successor, his silence over Mbeki's near-criminal attitude towards AIDS and Zimbabwe, and so on.

    These things are all public knowledge - maybe better to talk about these?

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    Re: Nelson Mandela

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Hmmmm, without wishing to denigrate your source, it's all a bit hearsay isn't it?
    Yes it is, but then, isn't every other historical record? If I compiled this person's stories and published a paper about them, would that make them a better source? Because that's all histories are, records of someone's view on an event.

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    These things are all public knowledge - maybe better to talk about these?
    Nah, rumour and speculation are much more fun.

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    Re: Nelson Mandela

    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    I owe you £5 then, because my source is an old friend who lived through that period and has told me many stories that never made it to the media for one reason or another ...
    We are talking about a regime that sought to control the news, that did everything that it could to portray the coloured population as inferior and savage, and for "one reason or another" suppressed stories that showed the opposition in a bad light.

    Hmmm ....

    "One reason or another" - can you name some?

    Or is it possible that the regime would sink to "black" propaganda?

    and it would be difficult to get his direct input here. He tells stories of those same attacks that Mandela admits, but he remembers the rumours and stories at the time of innocent people killed and injured when homemade explosives has unexpected results and/or people happened to be where Mandela and his men weren't expecting them to be. He also tells stories of attacks that weren't high profile enough for the world's media to hear about.
    I do not doubt that your friend heard those stories and believed them. The anti-black predjudice "coloured" everybody and everything. Mandela tells of his initial horror on discovering whilst sitting in an aircraft that they were allowing a black pilot to fly it.

    Maybe none of it was Mandela's fault. Maybe his local commanders got carried away, maybe acts were committed in the name of Umkhonto we Sizwe, as often happens in guerilla wars against the state,
    Maybe. S.A. had a reconciliation programme where criminal deeds confessed to were absolved from prosecution. Perhaps something to support your view there?

    however, Mandela formed the organisation and encouraged violence against the state, so ultimately he must be held responsible.
    If, as Mandela alleges, he gave specific instructions not to take life I cannot see how he is responsible.

    Mandela: A freedom fighter learns the hard way that it is the opressor that determines the nature of the struggle, and the opressed is left with no recourse but to use methods that mirror those of the opressor. At a certain point one can only fight fire with fire.
    ... But, as I say, I can't cite written or net sources so maybe I should keep my opinion to myself?
    I have no problem with your opinions, I would just like to know the facts.

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    Re: Nelson Mandela

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    We are talking about a regime that sought to control the news, that did everything that it could to portray the coloured population as inferior and savage, and for "one reason or another" suppressed stories that showed the opposition in a bad light.

    Hmmm ....

    "One reason or another" - can you name some?

    Or is it possible that the regime would sink to "black" propaganda?

    I do not doubt that your friend heard those stories and believed them. The anti-black predjudice "coloured" everybody and everything. Mandela tells of his initial horror on discovering whilst sitting in an aircraft that they were allowing a black pilot to fly it.

    Maybe. S.A. had a reconciliation programme where criminal deeds confessed to were absolved from prosecution. Perhaps something to support your view there?

    If, as Mandela alleges, he gave specific instructions not to take life I cannot see how he is responsible.



    I have no problem with your opinions, I would just like to know the facts.
    Anyone can be bias with facts as above , was Chruchill worse then Mandela I wonder ?



    ------------------------------

    Dresden

    Somewhere between 35,000 and 135,000 civilians were killed in the Feb. 13-14, 1945 attack-

    Churchill, U.S. President Franklin Roosevelt and Soviet leader Joseph Stalin had just met at Yalta to discuss the division of post-war Europe. Churchill's goal in bombing Dresden was to impress the Soviets with the air power of the Western capitalist allies and to make sure that the Red Army would seize a dead city.
    -------------------

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    Re: Nelson Mandela

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    ...Dresden

    Somewhere between 35,000 and 135,000 civilians were killed in the Feb. 13-14, 1945 attack-

    Churchill, U.S. President Franklin Roosevelt and Soviet leader Joseph Stalin had just met at Yalta to discuss the division of post-war Europe. Churchill's goal in bombing Dresden was to impress the Soviets with the air power of the Western capitalist allies and to make sure that the Red Army would seize a dead city.
    -------------------
    I worked with an M.A. mathematician who claimed that during the war he worked on mathematical of firestorms. These were used by bomber command and also in the Manhattan Project.

    Bombing Japan was a mission fraught with peril. The allies wanted to ensure that their incendary raids made maximum damage. They wanted a test of their tactics. They needed a target that somewhat resembled Tokio and other Japanese towns, with close packed buildings in narrow streets with a lot of wood used in the construction, a medieval town, like Dresden.

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