Do not dance with beginners ...

[Raul]

... if you are a beginner yourself and there are other dancers available.

Dancing with other beginners is ok for making new friends but as far as your dancing skills are concerned, the chances are that there will be twice as many mistakes in the dance and you will not be able to know which one of you is doing which bit correctly. It is ok if you are not taking that dance seriously.

Take courage and ask someone with more experience to dance. You will learn more about your own dancing and progress faster. Taxi dancers do a fantastic job at that and they may also be able to point out the beginner-friendly dancers at your venue to you.

[Lynn]

I can see where you are coming from Raul, and of course there are taxis and beginner friendly dancers and its very useful for a beginner to have a few dances with them but ....

.
Dancing with other beginners is ok for making new friends but as far as your dancing skills are concerned, the chances are that there will be twice as many mistakes in the dance and you will not be able to know which one of you is doing which bit correctly. It is ok if you are not taking that dance seriously.

...I think for beginners making friends is often more important than 'dancing skills' in the first few weeks. And getting up with a fellow beginner and both making mistakes can be a giggle and reassuring.

There is plenty of time to develop dancing skills and take the dance seriously after a few weeks or months of dancing. Let the beginners have fun, make friends and if they make a few mistakes along the way that's no big problem, they will get ironed out as they gain more experience.

[MartinHarper]

Yeah, I'd have to disagree with Raul too. To quote the lead/follow FAQ:

You learn how to dance better by dancing with more experienced partners. But you learn how to lead/follow better by dancing with less experienced partners.

FAQ: Lead and Follow, section 1.5

I recommend that everyone dances regularly with beginners, particularly beginners.

[Martin]

... if you are a beginner yourself and there are other dancers available.

Dancing with other beginners is ok for making new friends but as far as your dancing skills are concerned, the chances are that there will be twice as many mistakes in the dance and you will not be able to know which one of you is doing which bit correctly. It is ok if you are not taking that dance seriously.

Take courage and ask someone with more experience to dance. You will learn more about your own dancing and progress faster. Taxi dancers do a fantastic job at that and they may also be able to point out the beginner-friendly dancers at your venue to you.

I think it is great for beginners to dance with other beginners, it is social, but to progess, grab the more advanced...

Last night I danced with 2 first timers, and one 3rd timer... rest of the night with the ones I regularly dance with.

[David Bailey]

Dance with everyone.Although maybe not at the same time

[Astro]

Dance with everyone.Although maybe not at the same time

Beginners can't distinguish who's good and who's not.

There are some advanced dancers that run away from me. I think they have flashbacks of dancing with me as a beginner, poor souls.


Good advice is stay till the end, dance the freestyle.

Just doing the classes, and then going home is stupid, you won't retain anything.

[Clueless]

In Aberdeen 9/10 we carry on the dancing elsewhere, mainly on a Wednesday and I found this really good when I was learning (I still am) and I find it good to dance as often and with as many people as possible.

[Dazzler]

i love dancing with everyone...for different reasons based on thier experience.. e.g with advanced dancers i can put my musical interpretation to best use but with beginners i can build the strength of my lead... guess what am saying is beginners should dance with everyone to build on different areas of thier lead... i also have to agree that alot of beginners are nervous on thier first few weeks and probably find it easier to dance with each other as there is no pressure..

happy dancin to all!

[ducasi]

Beginners can't distinguish who's good and who's not.

I disagree. They might not be capable of judging at the next Ceroc Champs, but I think even most non-dancers will be able to tell the best from the worst, and the experienced from the beginner.

As a (touch in cheek) example of this... I remember being one time I was asked to dance by a beginner... She explained she had been advised to look around the hall and find the best dancers in the room, and ask them to dance. Clearly she was very discerning.

(Oh, but I agree with the general statement, dance with everyone.)

[Dreadful Scathe]

Yeah, I'd have to disagree with Raul too. To quote the lead/follow FAQ:

FAQ: Lead and Follow, section 1.5

yup, thats certainly my experience too. Theres nothing better for your lead than dancing with someone who clearly doesn't understand it - a "multi-lingual" lead is what you eventually end up with. Although i say that from PAST experience, my last few dances have been a bit hit and miss to say the least.

[David Bailey]

You know, every time I see this thread title, I mentally complete it as "... for they are subtle and quick to anger."

Looking at the original post, I think I agree with some of the principles, in that, as a beginner, it's easy to just dance with other beginners, they're less intimidating and they're more likely to be in your comfort zone.

It's scary asking the good dancers, so we don't - it's easier to dance with people at your own level or below. But we'd get more out of it if we asked a wider range of people (including those good dancers), than if we stuck to our comfort level.

[David Franklin]

You know, every time I see this thread title, I mentally complete it as "... for they are subtle and quick to anger."

Well for me, it was the line "... for thou art crunchy and taste good with catsup".

Looking at the original post, I think I agree with some of the principles, in that, as a beginner, it's easy to just dance with other beginners, they're less intimidating and they're more likely to be in your comfort zone.

It's scary asking the good dancers, so we don't - it's easier to dance with people at your own level or below. But we'd get more out of it if we asked a wider range of people (including those good dancers), than if we stuck to our comfort level.

I took the original post as talking about genuine beginners: people who'd done less than 5 classes. And in that context I think it's spot on to be honest. It's much easier to learn how to lead if you have a follow who knows what she's doing, and vice versa. If both of you don't have a clue, I'd say the most likely result is for both sides to do their side of the move "by rote", with no actual lead or follow going on.

A telling line from the section of the Lead/Follow FAQ:

Your skills are put much more to the test dancing with a beginner than with an experienced dancer.

If you're a beginner, this is probably not a good thing...

[killingtime]

I disagree. They might not be capable of judging at the next Ceroc Champs, but I think even most non-dancers will be able to tell the best from the worst, and the experienced from the beginner.

(Oh, but I agree with the general statement, dance with everyone.)

Maybe, though I think I found women who anticipated/back lead easier to dance with as a beginner rather than women who followed. Some people who looked good didn't seem to dance very well when I lead them (never really seemed to fully work out the fault was in the lead ) compared to others. Later, when I actually learnt more about this whole lead/follow thing I discovered that those I thought were awesome turned out to be tricky to lead whereas those that followed my lead became awesome.

As bad as this sounds even to me I think that backleading group of dancers were a great boast to my confidence as a beginner and, though it might have slowed down my progression, it was probably worth it.

Anyway the whole dance with everyone statement, I agree.

[Raul]

I started this thread because the most depressing dances that I have had as a BEGINNER in Jive and other dance forms has been with some other BEGINNERS.

These were depressing enough to make me think about giving up completely. When you start you really do not have a clue and there are many fundamental weknesses in your dancing. You may be very to dance with and experienced dancers may be able to perform a dance with you. If this is multiplied by two, that is with two beginners, you may not be able to go through one dance at all. Of course you can laugh it all, make friends but when you go home and think about your progress you may be inclined to think that you are not getting it at all. This is a NOT a true assessment of your skills.

If you are going for the purpose of learning, do the class which is taught by a teacher, do the revision class taught by an taxi dancer, again experienced and try and dance with some more experienced dancers.

The thread title was to make people stop and think. The intention is to stop beginners from trying to dance the hard way, beating themselves up and giving up.

[Ghost]

You know, every time I see this thread title, I mentally complete it as "... for they are subtle and quick to anger."

Well for me, it was the line "... for thou art crunchy and taste good with catsup".

"..they will only make you feel ugly"

which rather appropriately is what Raul's getting at I think.

I learnt Ceroc with 3 crazy women . They each have a totally different style. We had a great time learning . They knew that I would always dance with them and I knew they'd always dance with me - and I think that helps a lot. Probably more if you're a follow who doesn't know anyone and is shy about asking for dances.

But yeah, I did dance with the scarily good dancers too

[Zuhal]

WCS BLISS

about 300 people did the Beginner+ WCS workshop of which about 20 put their hand up to some previous experience.

I have some ability in different dance stylesbut this WCS is new to me.
I got the footwork syncopation but the moment I had a partner to worry about I lost it. During the rotation I had two ladies (out of maybe 20) who could WCS so then my pattern and the movement worked.

Smaller numbers did the whips workshop and there was more expertise dotted around so it was much easier to make it all work.

Raul has a point.

Zuhal

[Lynn]

If you are going for the purpose of learning, do the class which is taught by a teacher, do the revision class taught by an taxi dancer, again experienced and try and dance with some more experienced dancers.

Absolutely agree with all of that but the thread wasn't just encouraging people to dance with more experienced dancers but the title was aimed at actively avoiding dancing with other beginners.

The thread title was to make people stop and think. The intention is to stop beginners from trying to dance the hard way, beating themselves up and giving up.

But likewise dancing with more experienced dancers can be demotivating - feeling like you'll never measure up.

I would say, as others have - dance with everyone. If you are a beginner, of course make sure you grab a taxi and some other friendly dancers for some dances, but likewise be willing to have a go with another beginner and feel reassured that you aren't the only one getting it wrong.

FWIW, if two beginners are really getting hopelessly lost, any taxis who are not dancing can go over and offer help.

[Raul]

Absolutely agree with all of that but the thread wasn't just encouraging people to dance with more experienced dancers but the title was aimed at actively avoiding dancing with other beginners.

This is probably how you interpreted it.

This is the beginners section.
The title was to catch the attention of beginners. I have not said "actively avoid dancing with other beginners" but i realise just mentioning the words "beginners" will raise a red flag with persons who are sensitive about beginner dancing or are politically correct.

If I am encouraging beginners to dance with more experienced dancers is it such a bad thing? What is wrong with dancing with a beginner, we often talk about experienced people dancing with beginners but in reality not many do. We do not talk that often about beginners asking or accepting dances from experienced dancers. They are the ones who will often not ask or accept because they are shaking in their boots. They are the ones who need the encouragement to mix it. I regularly help in the beginners review class instead of doing the intermediate class and I see how hard it is for some of them to get it on their own. There are 2 taxi dancers for 20+ beginners sometimes.

[Astro]

This is probably how you interpreted it.

This is the beginners section.
The title was to catch the attention of beginners. I have not said "actively avoid dancing with other beginners" but i realise just mentioning the words "beginners" will raise a red flag with persons who are sensitive about beginner dancing or are politically correct.

If I am encouraging beginners to dance with more experienced dancers is it such a bad thing? What is wrong with dancing with a beginner, we often talk about experienced people dancing with beginners but in reality not many do. We do not talk that often about beginners asking or accepting dances from experienced dancers. They are the ones who will often not ask or accept because they are shaking in their boots. They are the ones who need the encouragement to mix it. I regularly help in the beginners review class instead of doing the intermediate class and I see how hard it is for some of them to get it on their own. There are 2 taxi dancers for 20+ beginners sometimes.

I used to ask the Gods as a beginner, but that was because I was taken there by a man, who didn't know who the best leads were.

If I had known who was who I wouldn't have had the nerve probably.

Sometimes it pays to be innocent.

Beginners can get away with a lot.

[Lynn]

If I am encouraging beginners to dance with more experienced dancers is it such a bad thing?

Not at all. Just that you might have put it as 'beginners, make sure you get some dances with more experienced dancers and don't only dance with other beginners', rather than 'Do not dance with beginners if you are a beginner and there are other dancers available' (which would be most of the time).

Encourage beginners to dance with more experienced dancers by all means. That is how they will learn after all. But for some beginners (and we're talking people at weeks 1-3 or so here) just getting through the class and having a wee go at doing the moves in a few tracks after class is enough.

Believe me, I'm passionate about people learning and feeling good about themselves in regard to what they have managed to achieve, probably more so than about anything else! But I also understand the importance of people feeling comfortable and sometimes that means having a few dances with someone closer to their ability level where they don't feel under pressure to 'get it right'. For someone in their first few weeks that can be more important than worrying too much about technique.

Once you get to a few months in, then dancing with more experienced dancers is invaluable.

What is wrong with dancing with a beginner, we often talk about experienced people dancing with beginners but in reality not many do.

I do. I usually have to actively seek them out and I think that's an important point and possibly partly where you are coming from - trying to encourage beginners to ask the more experienced dancers?