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Thread: Acupuncture study

  1. #21
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    Re: Acupuncture study

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    What do you mean by 'needle therapy' , read the report again
    Er...I used the phrase as a synonym of acupuncture. They use needles, right? And it is done in order to provide a therapeutic effect, right?

    Why will reading the report again be required?

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    Re: Acupuncture study

    Quote Originally Posted by Aleks View Post
    I sincerely hope that all the hours I spent learning the meridian and 5 element theory to get my degree isn't invalid. Maybe I just needed to learn it to prove I'm capable of retaining large quantities of (useless) information.
    Er...what was your degree in, if you please?

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    Re: Acupuncture study

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    4% of 1,200 is not trivial, but it's not massively conclusive either, IMO.

    And one obvious explanation for the variance might be that the "sham" acupuncturists didn't "fool" some of their patients, so the placebo effect was less pronounced - so the "proper" acupuncturists were more convincing liars, basically.

    But even if "proper" acupuncture were objectively shown to be a massive 4% better than "sham" acupuncture, that's not exactly a ringing endorsement.
    The question isn't whether it is trivial, with respect, it is whether it is statistically significant. And the answer is, no it isn't. But the difference between the needle therapy and the conventional therapy is statistically significant.

    One thing that may be happening - and I suspect it probably is - is that both the needle patients, acupuncture and non, were getting a placebo effect, and it is caused by the huge and powerful mystique that acupuncture has had built up around it over the last 30 years. All of them expected to benefit, so a lot of them did.

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    Re: Acupuncture study

    Quote Originally Posted by cms View Post
    completely agree! i have used acupuncture to great effect on many people - and not just patients! my ex boyfriend had cerebral palsy, ran marathons and had knee pain. after reading a similar case study i tried it on him and the results were amazing! so it does appear to work............
    but then - whats this one study compared to the many others that have been done over the years

    C x
    If you know of double blind studies showing acupuncture is effective, point us to them. All I am aware of is anecdotal evidence.

    ...such as the idiot referred to above, saying 'a billion chinese can't be wrong'.

    He'll be authorising the importation of bear bile then, presumably, along with all the other chinese medicines that require the slaughter of endangered species...

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    Re: Acupuncture study

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Barry'll like this:
    BBC NEWS | Health | Needles 'are best for back pain'

    Especially the bit saying:




    Another quote:

    So in other words, acupuncture is almost certainly a placebo effect only...
    The "sham" acupunture involved insertin needles near the back bone, and it produced a perceivable benefit. The "real" acupunture must have had the needles inserted in the locality, and, in this case, had only a marginal improvement.

    Where needles are inserted in "real" acupunture to try and affect areas more distant from the area of pain then, presumably, accuracy in hitting a point "connected" to that pain area could be expected to have a bigger effect.

    By just folowing the links I came across evidence that there is more than a placebo effect going on. These scientists looked at the brain reaction.

    BBC NEWS | Health | Acupuncture 'more than a placebo'

    Pickpockets use the fact that a sensation in one area masks the sensation in another. It is more than likely that the brain responds far more to any sensation of penetration of the skin rather than a dull ache.

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    Re: Acupuncture study

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    The question isn't whether it is trivial, with respect, it is whether it is statistically significant. And the answer is, no it isn't. But the difference between the needle therapy and the conventional therapy is statistically significant.

    One thing that may be happening - and I suspect it probably is - is that both the needle patients, acupuncture and non, were getting a placebo effect, and it is caused by the huge and powerful mystique that acupuncture has had built up around it over the last 30 years. All of them expected to benefit, so a lot of them did.
    3 times I have gone to get acupuncture for a strained neck. The kind that allows you to look to one side but a killer to turn the head to the other side (so the shoulders turn, much like a washing machine movement!) Anyway, I did not go in with any expectations on the first occasion and it felt like a miracle (Touch by God). I walked out not more than an hour later and my washing machine movement gone! Then next two occasions were for the same injury. The 3 times I went were spread out over a 10 year period. I believe in acupuncture for injuries as it has worked for me.

  7. #27
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Acupuncture study

    To be fair, a lot of people have reported anecdotally on the effectiveness of "sticking needles in".

    It's clear (to me) that the whole hippy quasi-religious "circulation of Qi, the meridian system, and the five phases theory" stuff is nonsense, and it's about as relevant to medical practice as any other religion - i.e. not. It's astrology, in other words.

    What's not clear to me, however, is whether there's some actual underlying truth that "sticking needles in" can have some effectiveness, or whether it's all placebo effect.

    And I'd still like to know about these other studies...

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    Re: Acupuncture study

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    One thing that may be happening - and I suspect it probably is - is that both the needle patients, acupuncture and non, were getting a placebo effect, and it is caused by the huge and powerful mystique that acupuncture has had built up around it over the last 30 years. All of them expected to benefit, so a lot of them did.
    You maintain that both the acupuncture and the "sham" needles produced a placebo effect. The authors of the study were not prepared to do this. What makes you a greater expert than them?
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Re: Acupuncture study

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Er...what was your degree in, if you please?
    You know the answer to this and I have finished with rounds of the same 'discussion' we have had many times.

  10. #30
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    Re: Acupuncture study

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    If you know of double blind studies showing acupuncture is effective, point us to them. All I am aware of is anecdotal evidence.

    ...such as the idiot referred to above, saying 'a billion chinese can't be wrong'.

    He'll be authorising the importation of bear bile then, presumably, along with all the other chinese medicines that require the slaughter of endangered species...
    il see what i can find. although as already said on here - there have been studys into how it affects the brain.

    however, like many people i always was sceptical and it wasnt until i started to do the course i realised it could be effective. I do believe it has its place but with injuries such as the recurrent neck injury someone else described, there must be an underlying cause which needs to be looked at too.
    for me, i use acupuncture for pain relief and then i often use other techniques to treat the underlying condition. my patients are happy - esp if the relief they get from the acupuncture actually lets me assess things properly!!!

    C x

  11. #31
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    Re: Acupuncture study

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Conventional medicine can't cure ebola, but that's no reason to listen to somebody who says extract of his toe cheese - or anything else - will do the job.

    We need to start with the assumption that it may be impossible to cure some ailments, and then go on to see what does work, rather than from the assumption that all ailments are curable and if conventional medicine won't do it let's rush into the arms of the quacks.

    If 27% who suffer ebola said they got better using coventional medicine

    44% said they got better with a type of toe cheese

    and 47% said they got better with the actual toe cheese you doubt

    where would you go from there ?

    Id say we need to improve the actual toe cheese

  12. #32
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    Re: Acupuncture study

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    Id say we need to improve the actual toe cheese
    Not if it involves changing one's socks less often. Some things are just too much.

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