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Thread: What does it mean to be a Christian

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    Re: What does it mean to be a Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn View Post
    Interesting that two of those things are based purely on your point of view
    Well, so are yours. You think your point of view is something more; but in the end all that's happening is that you are adopting somebody else's moral and ethical pronouncements and deciding to accept them as true.

    You get your ethics either from determining them from first principles, adopting them from another source, or a combination of the two. There is nothing innately more satisfactory in taking them from christian teachings than in working them out for yourself.

    Where do morals and ethics come from? The answer is almost banal. Consensus. Moral philosophers can sit and ruminate on what we ought to espouse, and they may postulate moral absolutes (thou shalt not kill except in self defence), but in practice we all come to a broad agreement on what is right and what is wrong. Some things it will be accpted that some will say wrong and others right, and there is room for disagreement. Other things may result in more consensus. Generally if the consensus is that something is morally wrong, it will - in civilised countries - be against the law.

    Those people who are unable to tell right from wrong are generally (and certainly legally) classified as insane. This is true whether they have learnt the tenets of christianity or not. We all proceed on the assumption - without examining it - that nothing is necessary other than our own understanding in order to tell right from wrong.

    I'm not sure I understand where you thought I was twisting your words. My question about the bible is this: if you believe it, how on earth do you explain to me, a brutal and unredeemed rationalist, the utterly disgusting behaviour of some of the people and of god himself that we see in that book - behaviour which I find morally repugnant in the extreme and - to be fair - I think most christians will agree.

    Slavery, for example, is clearly acceptable to the writers of the old testament. How do you suppose that state of affairs came about?

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    Re: What does it mean to be a Christian

    Oh, and one last thing.

    I live by the morals I have chosen because I believe it is the right thing to do.

    Isn't the problem with christianity that you live by its tenets because if you don't, eternal fire and brimstone await you? "Be nice, like I told you, otherwise I am going to be unbelievably horrible to you!"

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    Re: What does it mean to be a Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by Wes View Post
    nite nite, God Bless.
    Just as the soft rains fill the streams,
    pour into the rivers and join together in the oceans,
    so may the power of every moment of your goodness
    flow forth to awaken and heal all beings,
    Those here now, those gone before, those yet to come.

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    Re: What does it mean to be a Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    Nah, doesn't count if it's a legitimate usage. You Net Nazi, you

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    I don't think so. For example, Judaism has a concept of charity, and it predates Christianity by a fair amount. Check your Old Testament or Jewish bible for details.
    Tzedakah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Fair enought - and Zakat's the equivalent in Sunni Islam. But it reinforces my general point, that the charitable impulse is closely associated with religion, and so refutes Barry's blanket assertions that religions are inherently less moral than non-religious systems.

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    Re: What does it mean to be a Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Oh, get real! Christianity invented neither. The greeks had the concept of alms=giving and so did the romans, and to the extent that christians have traditionally upheld the 'no killing' thing, several other religions have been at least as creative as christianity. In fact, except for one or two notable exceptions, involving human sacrifice, they pretty much all forbid killing. (Except exuctioners. Er, and soldiers. Er, and a few other important exceptions which would be convenient for the statesmen whom the religions look to for endorsement.) Even the ones that had human sacrifice generally made killing unlawful.
    So, let me get this straight, you're agreeing with me that religions generally do have a moral code?

    Compare and contrast to your earlier statement of:
    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    In the real world, rationalists are far ahead of believers in the moral stakes.


    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    You really swallowed the propaganda, huh?
    Yeah, I'm just gullible that way.

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    Re: What does it mean to be a Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    Mind you, my religion claims that all humans inevitably suffer, which is even more miserable.
    ... Or maybe it's just good expectation management?

    Who's life is always a bed of roses? I have met none, and would strongly suspect any such claimant as being self delusional. [An ability, of which, human nature, mine definitely included, is a master]

    As a corollary, by accepting that life can, and will be painful some times, can then increase our capacity for joy. As in:

    "Man was made for Joy and Woe
    Then when this we rightly know
    Through the world, we'll safely go.

    Joy and Woe are woven fine.
    I clothing for the soul to bind." [Wordsworth - I think!]

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    Re: What does it mean to be a Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Nah, doesn't count if it's a legitimate usage. You Net Nazi, you


    Fair enought - and Zakat's the equivalent in Sunni Islam. But it reinforces my general point, that the charitable impulse is closely associated with religion, and so refutes Barry's blanket assertions that religions are inherently less moral than non-religious systems.
    Er...referee!! Where did I make that "blanket assertion"?

    I am denying that religions are inherently more moral than rationalism. But that isn't the same thing.

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    Re: What does it mean to be a Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    So, let me get this straight, you're agreeing with me that religions generally do have a moral code?
    Either I didn't post what I thought I'd posted, or you didn't read what I did post!

    Of course religions have a moral code. What I reacted against is the suggestion that rationlism doesn't, or cannot, have a moral code.

    I stand by my statement. The moral code of most religions is stuck in the bronze age; we now know so much more about human nature and human biology than we used to. We are also more 'civilised', generally, than we used to be. (For example, there were no democratic societies in the age of the old and new testaments - we now look askance at all nations that are not democratic, knowing that they are at the whim of an individual or of a very small oligarchy.)

    So what principles are we to apply to determining whether and if so how to modify that bronze age moral code? Certainly not religious ones.

    Yeah, I'm just gullible that way.
    {deadpan smiley}

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    Re: What does it mean to be a Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Er...referee!! Where did I make that "blanket assertion"?
    Where you said, and I quote for the third time:
    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    In the real world, rationalists are far ahead of believers in the moral stakes.
    Looks like a great big fluffy woolly blanket assertion to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    I am denying that religions are inherently more moral than rationalism. But that isn't the same thing.
    No, you said, explicitly, that rationalists are more moral than religious believers. And you're now changing the goalposts to weaken your statement, which is quite ironic considering you also said in this very thread:
    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    As is often the case in debates with believers, the ground changes.

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    Re: What does it mean to be a Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    I stand by my statement. The moral code of most religions is stuck in the bronze age; we now know so much more about human nature and human biology than we used to.
    Mmm, if you're saying that rationalist morality now is more advanced than religious morality now - in terms of social mores, treatment of minorities, and so on - then I think you've got a reasonable case.

    A lot of religions have not changed their moral stances as quickly as some parts of society. But then, a lot of other institutions haven't either.

    Look at the attitude of the US military to homosexuals. Or even here - the ban was only lifted in 2000 in the UK, until then gay men and women were vilified and persecuted and ejected from service to their country, simply for their sexual orientation. Frankly, I couldn't give a monkeys' who a soldier sleeps with, I'm just glad they're willing to die for my country.

    The Christian church would get a massive boost if it actually sorted out its mediaeval attitude towards sexuality - but that's unrealistic, too many 80-year-old men running it.

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    Re: What does it mean to be a Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by Ste View Post
    People's misconceptions as to what a Christian is are usually based on their ignorance of what the Bible says.
    Really? I would doubt that very much.. Peoples misconceptions of "Christians" is much more likely to come from experience of people who call themselves "Christians" rather than ignorance of the book.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ste View Post
    People think they know what a Christian is. A Christian is a good person, is nice, is non confrontational etc.
    But they're not. What you mean is "A Christian should be" all of those things. Theres plenty of evidence to the contrary, and plenty of evidence that non-Christians have all of those positive traits. So as a definition for a Christian, its no use.

    It doesn't matter if someone is a Christian or non-Christian - when they meet someone who professes to be a Christian they have to take them at their word until evidence is presented that makes them say "this person is NOT a Christian", but ultimately that is their opinion of the evidence, and does not mean that the person is not a Christian. I'd say the only valid measure of "who is a Christian" is whether someone calls themselves that or not.


    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    Upbringing, instinct, logic and my environment.
    This seems fair enough to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn
    But largely it seems to be based on 'I think it, so its OK' - which gives plenty of freedom to do as you please.
    Religion can be used as an "excuse" for moral standards, but everyone has some regardless. At no point did Bigdjiver suggest "i think it, so its ok" - his upbringing is not that of a hermit and his environment wasn't a padded cell with no human contact he's in the same position as you and everyone else; he was brought up knowing right from wrong, a lot of which was influenced by religion, but also our culture and society. As was yours. This is always changing. Attitudes to women, slavery, homosexuality, the law, paedophilia, class...etc...being simple examples of where we have changed "morally" as a society despite the bible remaining the same. The suggestions that morals come from religion is quite funny, as evidence says otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wes View Post
    How does that apply if you were a serial paedophile, rapist, murderer, thief etc. and you believed in the justness of your situation.
    Not sure what you're getting at here in reply to bigdjiver ? Not all people have what we consider "good morals" but bigdjivers "Upbringing, instinct, logic and my environment." are fairly universal foundations for our morals. Including yours, even if that "environment" was "church" or something else.

    This is also a good example of societies changing moral standards, despite religious texts. Is having sex with a 12 year old girl paedophilia ? some would say so, yet only a few centuries ago when Christianity was enforced; that was the legal marriage age for girls. In the crusades, simply wearing a cross on your chest absolved you from sin, whilst you raped, murdered and pillaged the holy lands. Is that still morally ok with people ?


    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    I don't believe that's true - for example, Christianity pretty much invented the concept of charity. Not to mention the whole "don't kill people" kind of thing.
    You must be joking. I'd ask you to retract this nonsense. Even animals will provide for the sick and crippled so the charity thing is laughable. As for "don't kill people" - in a tribal society you protect your own but kill others who would threaten your tribe or prevent your tribes betterment. Instead of tribe, use "culture,race,religion,nation,society" all apply equally well. Give me an example in human history where that basic concept stopped and we all lived peacefully

    There have been many enlightened societies in the world where such high moral standards and peaceful outlook did flourish. Strangely not many of them last and build empires, and none of them are Christian .
    Last edited by Dreadful Scathe; 1st-October-2007 at 10:26 AM.

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    Re: What does it mean to be a Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Isn't the problem with christianity that you live by its tenets because if you don't, eternal fire and brimstone await you? "Be nice, like I told you, otherwise I am going to be unbelievably horrible to you!"
    And here we are back to the start of the thread again.

    Christianity is not about keeping a set of rules, that is very clear in the New Testament. And that is why its problematic discussing it because you are misunderstanding the fundamental message of the death of Christ.

    I think its interesting that I asked a question about other peoples beliefs and try to understand a different viewpoint and the response is 'religion is wrong' - when I had simply been stating my beliefs without trying to say anyone else is wrong.

    What was that about not being judgemental? The most judgemental attitude about what someone else believes I've come across on religious threads is from the person who shouts the loudest about religion being wrong.
    Last edited by Lynn; 1st-October-2007 at 11:09 AM.

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    Re: What does it mean to be a Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Looks like a great big fluffy woolly blanket assertion to me.
    Absolutely, very much a blanket assertion.

    Not, however, the same assertion as that you attributed to me!

    You misunderstood the use of 'ahead' in my post. By that I meant something like 'more forward thinking', rather than the rather different interpretation you put on it as 'more moral'. Rationalists are grappling with the current moral issues in a contemporary fashion; believers generally have to start from their sacred texts.
    Last edited by Barry Shnikov; 1st-October-2007 at 12:32 PM.

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    Re: What does it mean to be a Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Really? I would doubt that very much.. Peoples misconceptions of "Christians" is much more likely to come from experience of people who call themselves "Christians" rather than ignorance of the book.
    Absolutely ... one of the best examples is the Bible Belt of the US ... as racist as they come, no respect for the sanctity of human life but all 'Christians' to a man ... and don't even get me started on the abomination that is the Vatican

    My experience is that the work of true Christians is rarely acknowledged because they rarely call notice to them. Many people know James and Janey Cronin as the founders of Ceroc and may have had the odd run in with them. Far fewer people are aware of the great Christian works and charitable things they have done and continue to do. Just because you don't see chrisitians shouting out what good works they do does not mean that this is not taking place!

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    Re: What does it mean to be a Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    {snip a bunch of responses I do not now need to make!}


    Good work, fella!

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    Re: What does it mean to be a Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    My experience is that the work of true Christians is rarely acknowledged because they rarely call notice to them.
    The thing is, all Christians, I'm sure, see themselves as "true" Christians - and it's only your opinion that they are not.

    Just because you don't see Christians shouting out what good works they do does not mean that this is not taking place!
    Likewise with red-headed people, short people, atheists, computer geeks and suchlike - good works can and are, performed by any groups of people you care to mention.

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    Re: What does it mean to be a Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn View Post
    Christianity is not about keeping a set of rules, that is very clear in the New Testament. And that is why its problematic discussing it because you are misunderstanding the fundamental message of the death of Christ.

    I think its interesting that I asked a question about other peoples beliefs and try to understand a different viewpoint and the response is 'religion is wrong' - when I had simply been stating my beliefs without trying to say anyone else is wrong.

    What was that about not being judgemental? The most judgemental attitude about what someone else believes I've come across on religious threads is from the person who shouts the loudest about religion being wrong.
    The position that christianity is not about keeping a set of rules is difficult to agree with. That is not all christianity is, but it is certainly one of its aspects. There is a difference between old and new testament rules - the Beatitudes, for example, are an excellent source of 'rules to live by', but without the Ten Commandments the Beatitudes are no more important than the work of, eg, Nietsche.

    My initial post - for which I received some private congratulations - was simply in response to the assertion that human nature is sinful; then there was the quesstion about where moral guidance for rationalists comes from. I didn't say 'religions is wrong', I've been confining my remarks to particular areas, basically moral attitudes.

    Finally, I didn't complain about judgmentalism; perhaps I explained it badly. As a rationlist, I adopt a moral code because I think it is better for me and those who are affected by me to behave in one way rather than another. There is an obvious question whether Christians adopt their moral code in a similar voluntary manner, because for them there is the threat of eternal punishment if they don't behave the way god says they should.

    There are many instances of christians taking a viewpoint which is entirely supported by their faith, but which has a tendency to increase the pain and suffering in the world (admittedly other christians do not agree). This is justified by an appeal to the sacred texts or to abstruse theology; a rationalist is free to say 'Sod that; if it will help, e.g. young women to avoid cervical cancer then let's do it!'

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    Re: What does it mean to be a Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    The thing is, all Christians, I'm sure, see themselves as "true" Christians - and it's only your opinion that they are not.
    True ... but there are some black and white examples ... I think the Nazi party considered itself to be Christian ... the basis for the war on Jews was to an extent based on the Jews 'sin' of killing Christ. The WHOLE point I was trying to make is that Christians who are true to the word and spirit of the teachings of Christ do try to make a positive impact on the world. That is not to say that other groups do not. I think that, if nothing else, this thread has pone more proven that the cynics will put up any argument to reduce Christian followers to just 'another group like any other' ... ignoring the great works done by the many, focusing on the ill deeds done by the few.

    Would it be so hard for people to look at the positives and celebrate them rather than having to tear down anything that they may not quite understand?

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    Re: What does it mean to be a Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    True ... but there are some black and white examples ... I think the Nazi party considered itself to be Christian
    Very true, Hitler was very pro-christian and I'm sure many Nazi sympathisers and the general populace, who would never be fully aware of everything their state sanctioned, felt they had God on their side. But I bet they were still very "Christian" in most of their lives despite supporting such a regime. So this is certainly not a black and white issue. Its as grey as any other Christian society in any other era.

    The WHOLE point I was trying to make is that Christians who are true to the word and spirit of the teachings of Christ do try to make a positive impact on the world.
    Like the Amish ? You need to think this through They've entirely given up in the world.

    Would it be so hard for people to look at the positives and celebrate them rather than having to tear down anything that they may not quite understand?
    Most humans want a decent peaceful society and anyone who works against that is worth highlighting, whether they are religious or not (really an irrelevance). It's not too much to ask that the default position SHOULD be one of positives, so its only natural to baulk at what we don't want. We highlight the negatives because these are the things we do not want and they happen every single day. Every group that you could make up a label for: Christians, musicians, joggers or jivers etc... - will have "good and evil" members. We are not outraged by the good are we? You are right though, highlighting the evil can serve to make it appear more "normal". I remember this was cited (in Fahrenheit 911) as one of the reasons the US has more violent crime - their news is almost all negative when compared to Canadian news.

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    Re: What does it mean to be a Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    I think the Nazi party considered itself to be Christian ...
    See, MartinHarper? That's a proper old-school Godwin Law

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