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Thread: What does it mean to be a Christian

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    Re: What does it mean to be a Christian

    I think that in reality, in defining what is a Christian, you have to go to the Bible, and in particular the New Testament. After all that is where the idea as to what Christianity is, comes from.

    People's misconceptions as to what a Christian is are usually based on their ignorance of what the Bible says. People seem to know bits and bobs about what a Christian is and therefore what a Christian isn't. But how can you know what a Christian is unless you study the New Testament and the teachings therein. This series of books isn't that long and you could probably get through it in a few days or weeks if you were genuinely interested.

    People think they know what a Christian is. A Christian is a good person, is nice, is non confrontational etc.I would say maybe, in certain contexts. Some people think that Christians are hypocrites. Well I certainly am. So that's true as well. They can see facets of Christianity but not the whole picture because they might not have taken the time to really investigate. It's the whole picture which is important, not the perceived glitches.

    But to me, and I have read the New Testament from cover to cover and am very familiar with it, I would say that being a good person does not make you a Christian. Like being black and white and furry does not make you a zebra. Neither does being a bad person stop you being a Christian. The thief on the cross was probably a bad person, yet Jesus said that he would be with Jesus in paradise.

    My understanding of the bible tells me that a Christian is someone who realises that they are a bad person and then asks Christ into their life. They still have their "flesh" to contend with after conversion but spiritually they belong to Christ. A Christian is the person that comes to God and beats their breast in anguish and asks God for forgiveness. A Christian isn't someone who boasts about how good he is. If you cannot admit that you are a bad person and inherently weak, you cannot become a Christian.

    Jesus said that it was like having a bath. If you have a bath (receive Christ) then you just need to wash the parts of your body that get dirty later (because of doing things that displease God). You don't need another bath (receiving Christ again).

    Becoming a Christian is about what God does for you and in you and not what you do for God. The New Testament shows that before God, everyone is essentially helpless and needs help to live a godly life. For instance I have many issues. I know that I can be very aggressive because although I have had a middle class upbringing for most of my life, I actually started my early life in a very rough area in Liverpool and hung out with very very aggressive people and the occasional Chinese gangster (who I am still friendly with). Even now as an adult I get really worked up about things and some forum people have actually seen me in action ( I have been insulted some many times, sometimes I can't take it!). But there is forgiveness for someone like me.

    But don't argue with me (!). Read the New Testament and make up your own mind.

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    Re: What does it mean to be a Christian

    Thats not how i read Barrys criticism. it was NOT a denail of a "flaw" in human nature, it was disgust at the negativity surrounding the obsession with perfection. I think its quite negative of anyone to think of basic human nature as a flaw and to focus on something we cannot attain. Do you really think thats a healthy attitude to have ?
    'Disgust at negativity'!!!!!!???
    'Obsession with perfection'!!!???

    The facts are not 'negativity' they are what they are.. accept that.

    'Focus on something we cannot attain' !!!???

    Who says that, one battle at a time, we cannot 'attain' betterment? even if only over that one flaw, or better still one flaw at a time, we can acheive that.

    If we cannot then why do we try to rehabiltate, drug addicts, peodophiles,
    alcoholics, etc etc.
    Again, repeat, this is not negativity, it is dealing with humanity as we find it
    and knowing that it can be worked with.
    So, yes, this IS a healthy attitude to have.

    Who is obsessed with perfection? Some people wish to become great dancers,
    some people will really strive to achieve their goal, term it as an obsession if you like, but if people are obsessed with becoming better at whatever....dancers/people/husbands/fathers/persons etc . then more power to 'em and may the whole world be so obsessed trying to attain betterment!
    Last edited by Wes; 30th-September-2007 at 06:57 PM. Reason: spelling error

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    Re: What does it mean to be a Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by Wes View Post
    What are we talking here, attitudes… or the facts of Humanity, if you wish to live in denial of a flaw in human nature then so be it,
    At the risk of seeming condescending, you are doing what believers do all the time. You are assuming that what you have been taught and believe are incontrovertible. But that's not the case.

    For it to be reasonable to talk of 'flaws' in human nature, you have to already have an ideal human in mind. One or more ideals. Then you argue back from there to the idea that there are flaws in the people who we share the planet with.

    But to a rationalist, this is as bizarre as comparing individual dogs to a hypothetical 'perfect dog'. What would it be - small, large, smooth, rough, long tail, short tail, pointer, terrier, hunting dog, black, honey coloured, white - what? They are what they are, and we are what we are. Living a human life in pursuit of a wholly imaginary ideal is a bit like a dog being miserable all its because it isn't a perfect dog.

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    Re: What does it mean to be a Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn View Post
    And therein lies the problems in this discussion.

    If you are talking about 'humanity' and leaving God out of the picture, of course you are going to not understand the concept of 'sin'. You can only understand sin and falling short of God's standards if you accept that God has set standards in the first place.

    I believe in God - the God of the Bible. I have a question for those who have no belief in God - from where do you draw your standards of morality? How do you decide what is acceptable behaviour? And if its just based on your own opinions, not on any system of belief, how do you then judge other people's behaviour - just as it affects you personally? Genuine question.
    Er...before I get stuck into this, can you confirm whether that is the whole bible, or only the bits where the god of the bible confines himself to behaving in a way you find morally acceptable?

    As for where I get my standards from - as is often the case you fall into the believer's error of assuming that there is nothing of value in other religions. All of them - and isn't it just the weirdest coincidence - have a remarkable degree of consensus on what is and is not acceptable.

    In the real world, rationalists are far ahead of believers in the moral stakes. We accepted homosexuality as an ordinary part of human nature a long time before religion did, for example. Many believers can't get that far even today!

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    Re: What does it mean to be a Christian

    As is often the case in debates with believers, the ground changes.

    My original complaint is with the statement 'humans are by nature sinful'.

    But all the counter arguments have been coming from people saying things like 'Can't we make ourselves better' or 'isn't it a good thing to have goals to aim for' and so forth.

    This is either disingenuous or missing the point.

    The point is that by taking, as your starting point, this idea that we are all bad people who, unless there is some external power source which helps us, can never be better than bad (logic chopping about whether bad people are also sinful people is not to the point - I have to use a synonym for 'sinful' in order to explain the point) is miserable.

    When my sister asked me to be a godfather to her first daughter, I baulked. Why? Because the ceremony requires an acknowledgment that the child is born into sin. Looking at a little baby girl, with the almost unlimited potential that she represents, and bolting that particular ball and chain around her ankle for all of her life - I see that as ugliness incarnate.

    I got such a *******ing from my mother that with my sister's second child I had little choice but to agree, but I still resented the ceremony from start to finish.

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    Re: What does it mean to be a Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    In the real world, rationalists are far ahead of believers in the moral stakes. We accepted homosexuality as an ordinary part of human nature a long time before religion did, for example. Many believers can't get that far even today!


    Particularly in the tolerance of the other religions and the belief that each person is primarily for his/own life choices e.g. contraception and divorce. Negative emotions such as guilt or being in a state of sin or being constantly on alert from the devil are tools which have been used to control the masses and there has been a big backlash against this nonsense.

    I still think that "belief" is a good thing, on a personal level. The organised traditional religions have mess and no wonder, you cannot have "belief" if it is dependent on you having to comply to rules and dictats. They are supposed to guide, not rule the bl00dy world.

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    Re: What does it mean to be a Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Er...before I get stuck into this, can you confirm whether that is the whole bible, or only the bits where the god of the bible confines himself to behaving in a way you find morally acceptable?
    All of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    As for where I get my standards from - as is often the case you fall into the believer's error of assuming that there is nothing of value in other religions. All of them - and isn't it just the weirdest coincidence - have a remarkable degree of consensus on what is and is not acceptable.
    Hmm, maybe try reading the post first?

    I stated my personal beliefs.

    Then I asked where people get standards from who do not believe in God. Not the Bible, not 'my' religion, but in a higher creative and sustaining power - ie Someone who makes the rules. I have spent a fair bit of time studying other religious belief systems than my own and have seen much of value, and also seen a this 'coincidence' that you refer to - to me its a suggestion that man does seek the divine and is aware that there is more to life.

    So instead of jumping in and trying to twist my question, you could try answering it?

    For someone with no belief in God or any higher being, where do you get your standards from?

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    Re: What does it mean to be a Christian

    Er...before I get stuck into this, can you confirm whether that is the whole bible, or only the bits where the god of the bible confines himself to behaving in a way you find morally acceptable?
    As for where I get my standards from - as is often the case you fall into the believer's error of assuming that there is nothing of value in other religions.
    As it seems is often the case, you fall into the error of assuming that I/we think that there is nothing of value in other religions, WHY do you ‘assume’ that?
    All of them - and isn't it just the weirdest coincidence - have a remarkable degree of consensus on what is and is not acceptable
    .
    Well all of them would do, just the same as the judiciary in each country has to set boundaries to prevent some peoples inherently flawed excesses especially in the realms of harm to others i.e. rape, peodophilia, murder, robbery, etc. (which seems to be acceptable behaviour in their own eyes), but obviously not in the eyes of the victim nor the populace in general. Of course there are basic tennets of acceptable behaviour to fellow humans, that not only religions, but laws of the land have a degree of concensus on… not really a weird coincidence (nor rocket science).
    In the real world, rationalists are far ahead of believers in the moral stakes. We accepted homosexuality as an ordinary part of human nature a long time before religion did, for example. Many believers can't get that far even today
    !

    Yes, this is true, however, religionist, looking around at the consequences of flawed humanity, have decided (rightly or wrongly) to accept and trust the higher authority of their god, trusting that their god, as the creator of all, actually knows best. To me (and Jesus it seems) the highest morality is to do unto others as you would have them do to you, or of a lesser benefit, dont do to others what you would not want them to do to you... so as he said... 'let him who is without sin, cast the first stone' ..Leave the judging to the god of your faith.


    As is often the case in debates with believers, the ground changes.
    Where!!?



    The point is that by taking, as your starting point, this idea that we are all bad people who, unless there is some external power source which helps us, can never be better than bad (logic chopping about whether bad people are also sinful people is not to the point - I have to use a synonym for 'sinful' in order to explain the point) is miserable.
    An assumption again Barry, who says we are all ‘Bad people’ ????
    What is being said is that we are all inhererantly flawed, that does not necessarily make us ‘bad’ people.

    When my sister asked me to be a godfather to her first daughter, I baulked. Why? Because the ceremony requires an acknowledgment that the child is born into sin. Looking at a little baby girl, with the almost unlimited potential that she represents, and bolting that particular ball and chain around her ankle for all of her life - I see that as ugliness incarnate.

    I got such a *******ing from my mother that with my sister's second child I had little choice but to agree, but I still resented the ceremony from start to finish.
    That kinda makes you, as a rationalist, a bit of a hyppocrite then! (For the best possible reasons however!)

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    Re: What does it mean to be a Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    As is often the case in debates with believers, the ground changes.

    My original complaint is with the statement 'humans are by nature sinful'.
    I have a lot of sympathy for this viewpoint also.

    The point about original sin is that you start out from a position of sinfulness when you're born. That always seemed just nasty to me - I don't believe babies inherit the sins of their fathers.

    And there's a world of difference between being born "flawed" and being born "sinful". I can accept flawed, I can't accept sinful.

    However:
    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    When my sister asked me to be a godfather to her first daughter, I baulked.
    Barry, can I just say, that's plain nuts? It's your family - do what they want, for goodness' sake. There's such a thing as taking a stand too far.

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    Re: What does it mean to be a Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    In the real world, rationalists are far ahead of believers in the moral stakes.
    I don't believe that's true - for example, Christianity pretty much invented the concept of charity. Not to mention the whole "don't kill people" kind of thing.

    Yes, there are serious issues some churches have, mainly with the Sex Thing, but life's not all about sex, you know.

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    Re: What does it mean to be a Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn View Post
    ...For someone with no belief in God or any higher being, where do you get your standards from?
    Upbringing, instinct, logic and my environment.

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    Re: What does it mean to be a Christian

    Upbringing, instinct, logic and my environment
    How does that apply if you were a serial paedophile, rapist, murderer, thief etc. and you believed in the justness of your situation.

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    Re: What does it mean to be a Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by Wes View Post
    How does that apply if you were a serial paedophile, rapist, murderer, thief etc. and you believed in the justness of your situation.
    Outside of my zone of experience, but I presume that is why such people behave as they do.

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    Re: What does it mean to be a Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    Upbringing, instinct, logic and my environment.
    Interesting that two of those things are based purely on your point of view, one is presumably family/society values and the last 'environment' I am not sure about - I would think that 'environment' or circumstances, situations etc is where your standards/morality etc is challenged and put to the test, do you mean that or what do you mean?

    But largely it seems to be based on 'I think it, so its OK' - which gives plenty of freedom to do as you please.

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    Re: What does it mean to be a Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by Wes View Post
    Hitler
    Godwin's Law

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn View Post
    I have a question for those who have no belief in God - from where do you draw your standards of morality?
    Since you ask, mostly from Karma.
    Certain actions have negative consequences for the actor - we can call these things "evil" or "sinful" or "unskillful". For example, lieing to people will make them trust me less. Other actions have positive consequences - we can call these things "good" or "blessed" or skillful". For example, helping strangers makes it more likely that I will be helped in turn. Cause and Consequence. There's no god, no judgement - this is just how the world works. I can work with the world, and do "good" things, or oppose the world, and do "evil" things. Both are valid choices - I make decisions and accept the consequences of those decisions.

    I also draw my ethics from aesthetics. Elegance and beauty accompany good acts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn View Post
    Largely it seems to be based on 'I think it, so its OK' - which gives plenty of freedom to do as you please.
    Observing the world gives a fairly clear idea of which acts provoke good and bad karma. If I have doubts there are a number of places I can go to for guidance. Aesthetics are personal, certainly, but don't give me freedom to do as I please. War is ugly and clumsy, and always has been. I cannot choose to find it beautiful. There are occasional situations where I find it hard to decide, but my religion does not require me to be flawless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ste View Post
    Read the New Testament and make up your own mind.
    Interesting assumption you make that folks in this thread haven't read the Bible. I've read all the Old Testament and all the New Testament except the letters. Like many former Christians, reading the Bible was the first step towards losing faith.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wes View Post
    Again, repeat, this is not negativity, it is dealing with humanity as we find it.
    It's dealing with humanity as you find it. Personally, I do not find "flawed" a useful descriptor for humanity. It's technically accurate but highly misleading.

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Christianity pretty much invented the concept of charity.
    I don't think so. For example, Judaism has a concept of charity, and it predates Christianity by a fair amount. Check your Old Testament or Jewish bible for details.
    Tzedakah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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    Re: What does it mean to be a Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn View Post
    ... the last 'environment' I am not sure about - I would think that 'environment' or circumstances, situations etc is where your standards/morality etc is challenged and put to the test, do you mean that or what do you mean?

    But largely it seems to be based on 'I think it, so its OK' - which gives plenty of freedom to do as you please.
    On the rare occasions that I happen to wish to do something that society disaproves of I have to contend with the reaction of society. It is the same for all of us. I would think that someone with the belief that they can "sin", but will be forgiven, and that they are going to lan afterlife has considerably more freedom than I do.

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    Re: What does it mean to be a Christian

    nite nite, God Bless.

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    Re: What does it mean to be a Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    I don't believe that's true - for example, Christianity pretty much invented the concept of charity. Not to mention the whole "don't kill people" kind of thing.

    Yes, there are serious issues some churches have, mainly with the Sex Thing, but life's not all about sex, you know.
    Oh, get real! Christianity invented neither. The greeks had the concept of alms=giving and so did the romans, and to the extent that christians have traditionally upheld the 'no killing' thing, several other religions have been at least as creative as christianity. In fact, except for one or two notable exceptions, involving human sacrifice, they pretty much all forbid killing. (Except exuctioners. Er, and soldiers. Er, and a few other important exceptions which would be convenient for the statesmen whom the religions look to for endorsement.) Even the ones that had human sacrifice generally made killing unlawful.

    You really swallowed the propaganda, huh?

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    Re: What does it mean to be a Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by Wes View Post
    How does that apply if you were a serial paedophile, rapist, murderer, thief etc. and you believed in the justness of your situation.
    Well, now, that's an interesting point.

    Can you direct me to the primary christian source that tells us it's wrong to have sex with children?

    I stand to be corrected, but I think this is something that we have all now decided is wrong, collectively, but I do not remember that it is addressed anywhere by the sacred texts.

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    Re: What does it mean to be a Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Barry, can I just say, that's plain nuts? It's your family - do what they want, for goodness' sake. There's such a thing as taking a stand too far.
    I wasn't taking a stand. That implies some kind of nobility (or at least pompousness) whereas I was just uncomfortable about speaking the words (or giving the assents, I don't remember much after nearly 17 years).

    The only reason why I agreed second time round is that it was made clear to me that nobody particularly believed in the ceremony, it was just a way of marking an entrance into the world.

    My feeling is - well, why not have a different ceremony, one you can agree with? but that wasn't about to happen.

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