What does it mean to be a Christian

[Dance Demon]

A Christian is someone who believes in the Gospel and teachings of Jesus Christ.
People who are Christians, abide by what is taught in the New Testament. The New Testament contradicts a lot of what is written in the Old Testament. People who believe in Christ often don't practice what he taught to the letter of the law. It is therefore possible to be a Christian, i.e a believer in Christ, but to act in a not so Christian way. I would think that the Highest ranking figures in most Christian faiths, often do things that are not very " Christian".

[MartinHarper]

A Christian is someone who believes in the Gospel and teachings of Jesus Christ.

It's just semantics, but I feel that attempting to follow those teachings, accept Christ's salvation, or whatever, has to be a requirement. Otherwise you get the weird situation where someone can believe Christ, choose to reject him in favour of damnation, and still be a Christian. Thus, Satan is a Christian.

[purplehyacinth]

Biblical Christianity is very clear - its about admitting that we can't measure up to being 'perfect' and sinless and acknowledging that the only person who ever could was Jesus. And that he accepted our punishment when he was crucified - so being a Christian is really about being forgiven by God. (I can give verses for all this if anyone wants).

So being a Christian is about what we believe - we are made right with God through the actions of Christ, not our own actions. Therefore its not what we do or how we behave that makes someone a Christian - but being a Christian should make us seek to behave in a certain way and the Bible is full of examples of this.

Basically the first step in 'becoming' a Christian is admitting we 'fail to meet the guidelines of the Bible'. Therefore doing so does not mean someone has to stop calling themselves a Christian, its simply acknowledging we aren't perfect!

However that is Biblical Christianity - there is also what you might call 'cultural Christianity' where someone calls themselves a Christian because they live in a Christian country, or go to church, but don't actually have a faith in the God of the Bible. That means they may be trying to follow the 'guidelines' of the Bible without having any source of strength from personal faith and that must be a difficult way to live.

no matter how hard we try we can never be perfect. And to 'get in at the pearly gates' as it were based on what we have done, you would need to have been perfect for every second of your life, never even having had a bad thought! None of us can measure up to that.

That's why Christianity is about grace - forgiveness we don't deserve on our own merit, but that we can recieve on Christ's merit - if we are willing to accept it.

Basically you can't 'try' to be a Christian - you would always fail - its not about how good you 'try' to be, but about accepting God's forgiveness.

That's the whole point. The reason that Christians will always "fail" in a human sense to achieve through their own acts is that the standard aspired to is perfection. There was only one human ever attained perfection and that was Christ - who lived the perfect life, and without sin. However He was only able to achieve that perfect life because He WAS God (the Word Incarnate, or God become flesh).

Because humans are, by nature sinful, reconciliation between humans and God was achieved only through sacrifice - the sacrifice of Christ as an atonement for human sin. And it is only through HIS sacrifice, and faith in Him, and through His grace that humans can be "justified" before God. In this connection, "justified" effectively means that our sins are answered for, and we are spared the penalty for them through Christ's intercession and sacrifice.

No human can - of his or her own efforts remain sinless.

However that does not mean that Christians should not try. A Christian's attempt to live a Christian life - trying not to sin, and trying to live out the Commandments - are a response to the love shown to us by Christ - effectively a practical expression of love for God by trying to live as he would have us do. Christ's command when he forgave was "go thou and sin no more".

What frequently happens - and all too sadly - is that non Christians are quick to pick up on any failing or shortcoming of a Christian, and say that because that Christian has failed, that person cannot be a "proper" Christian. Even worse, it does happen that such failings on the part of Christians are treated as reflecting back on Christ, with people saying "well that "Christian's" not up to much, so Christianity must be baloney."

In a way that fails to recognise that Christians are human too.
Yes Christians are trying to attain certain standards - but to be a Christian does not mean that one achieves instant perfection, or becomes immune to human temptations or human foibles like - for instance - temper or selfishness. It is only by long work and self discipline, and the grace and power of God that personal improvement can be achieved.

(as a side note, I am not making any personal reference to anyone in this post. All comments are general - I haven't seen the original post(s) which provoked this thread and am not commenting on anyone in that connection)

[Dance Demon]

There was only one human ever attained perfection and that was Christ - who lived the perfect life, and without sin.

No he didn't. He lost his temper with the gamblers in the Temple and lashed out at them, instead of showing the forgiveness that he preached.

[Barry Shnikov]

Because humans are, by nature sinful

I think it's really miserable that ordinary decent humans teach and believe that.

Just one of the reasons that religion is bad.

[Martin]

In the past a good christian will wage war against other nations in the name of Christ.

Being brought up in a "christian environment" I am so glad to have now met "normal" people. Who say what they do, and do what they say. Instead of say what they think they should do, and do something else.

I find non-christians far more "honest".

When I was 16, 3 girls of similar age, became pregnant, all 3 girls were daughters of "elders" in the church.

2 out of the 3 , got kicked out of their home, and had to "go it alone"... [at 16!!!]

and .......

[Raul]

Being brought up in a "christian environment" I am so glad to have now met "normal" people. Who say what they do, and do what they say. Instead of say what they think they should do, and do something else.

I find non-christians far more "honest".

You probably find non-christians more honest because you have no expectations of them. In your argument, it does not necessarily follow that the non-christians are "better" than christians in the way they live.(as opposed to "preach")

IMO everyone is the same and has the same kind of strengths and weaknesses.

Some people are genuinely more conscious of the feelings and needs of others and show that in their behaviour. I think that this is an admirable quality and whatever the source of this be it religion, culture, environment, it should be encouraged.

[Feelingpink]

In the past a good christian will wage war against other nations in the name of Christ.

Being brought up in a "christian environment" I am so glad to have now met "normal" people. Who say what they do, and do what they say. Instead of say what they think they should do, and do something else.

I find non-christians far more "honest".

When I was 16, 3 girls of similar age, became pregnant, all 3 girls were daughters of "elders" in the church.

2 out of the 3 , got kicked out of their home, and had to "go it alone"... [at 16!!!]

and .......

Personally, it seems difficult to find people who are honest and true to themselves, let alone with other people (Christian or otherwise). At least some adult Christians (& those of other religions) think about their actions and their impact on others. (And don't even get me started on people playing games as opposed to 'real' communication).

[bigdjiver]

No he didn't. He lost his temper with the gamblers in the Temple and lashed out at them, instead of showing the forgiveness that he preached.

I know of no Christians who would advocate not trying to stop a sin in progress, if that is possible.

[Martin]

You probably find non-christians more honest because you have no expectations of them. In your argument, it does not necessarily follow that the non-christians are "better" than christians in the way they live.(as opposed to "preach")

IMO everyone is the same and has the same kind of strengths and weaknesses.

Some people are genuinely more conscious of the feelings and needs of others and show that in their behaviour. I think that this is an admirable quality and whatever the source of this be it religion, culture, environment, it should be encouraged.

I am not saying any one person is "better"..

What I am saying is that people without a strong religion will less often say one thing and do another, therefore to me more honest.

Being conscious of feelings and needs of others is obviously a good thing...It is talked about a lot in Christian circles, and then when it comes down to "saving face" in my experience 2 out of 3, kicked out thier own daughter at a young age to "save face"...

Out of a christian environment or a strong religious belief system I have not come across 2 out of 3 kicking out thier kids for this.

This is just from my personal (and heart-felt) experience. I am hoping there are better examples out there.

I guess I like people to speak thier mind, sometimes in a belief system people are hesitant to speak thier own mind... There are of course exceptions, and all power to them.

To me, being a Christian means , trying for a goal and covering up things that do not reach that goal. There are some wonderful people who are Christian and do not cover up the short falls, they are often the ones who get the most stick from the other "Christians" around them.

Now be honest folks, if you are a Christian, do you see this happening around you???

[Wes]

Because humans are, by nature sinful

I think it's really miserable that ordinary decent humans teach and believe that.

Just one of the reasons that religion is bad.

So Barry, what is your experience of yourself or people, are they all wonderful, without fault, honest as the days long not selfishly motivated in any way to any degree?!
Yes it is really miserable that history lessons include the deeds of Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin etc.etc. etc. But they are the fact.
So, perhaps that could be just one of the reasons that teaching history 'is also bad'!

[Barry Shnikov]

So Barry, what is your experience of yourself or people, are they all wonderful, without fault, honest as the days long not selfishly motivated in any way to any degree?!
Yes it is really miserable that history lessons include the deeds of Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin etc.etc. etc. But they are the fact.
So, perhaps that could be just one of the reasons that teaching history 'is also bad'!

Er, no, that's not my experience, nor what I think.

Perhaps you could reflect carefully on the phrase about which I complained:

"Humans are by nature sinful". I could highlight the egregiously offensive words but I'm sure you'll get the gist.

That is a miserably negative attitude. Essentially, any adult with a reflective mind knows the sort of things that are, if not impossible, certainly very difficult in life. Never coveting thy neighbour's ass or his wife, to take two purely at random. Then, make them forbidden! On pain of everlasting torture in hell! Everlasting! For e-v-e-r!! Then, just to put the icing on the cake, make sure everyone feels really guilty and upset about these transgressions right now, while they are alive. Also, make sure they know it's their fault they aren't perfect because, gosh darn it! they just aren't trying hard enough.

And make them teach the same miserable stuff to their children.

(For other tips and pointers on making the world more miserable than it needs to be, see the rest of the bible, the Torah, the Koran, and all sacred texts wherever they be.)

[MartinHarper]

So Barry, what is your experience of yourself or people, are they all wonderful, without fault, honest as the days long not selfishly motivated in any way to any degree?!
Yes it is really miserable that history lessons include the deeds of Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin etc.etc. etc. But they are the fact.

Those history lessons demonstrate that some humans (a small minority) are evil. That is a different matter from those religions that claim that all humans are inherently sinful (or, in extreme cases, born into sin). Given my experiences of humans have been general positive, such religions do not convince me.

Mind you, my religion claims that all humans inevitably suffer, which is even more miserable.

[David Bailey]

So Barry, what is your experience of yourself or people, are they all wonderful, without fault, honest as the days long not selfishly motivated in any way to any degree?!
Yes it is really miserable that history lessons include the deeds of Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin etc.etc. etc. But they are the fact.
So, perhaps that could be just one of the reasons that teaching history 'is also bad'!

In my experience, I've personally encountered far more "good" people than "evil" ones.

ALthough, having said that, evil may be more extreme - i.e. I've encountered several complete and utter irredeemable scumbags, whereas I've not to my knowledge encountered any saints.

Or, possibly, extremely evil people are simply more visible than extremely good ones?

[Wes]

[That is a miserably negative attitude. Essentially, any adult with a reflective mind knows the sort of things that are, if not impossible, certainly very difficult in life. Never coveting thy neighbour's ass or his wife, to take two purely at random. Then, make them forbidden! On pain of everlasting torture in hell! Everlasting! For e-v-e-r!! Then, just to put the icing on the cake, make sure everyone feels really guilty and upset about these transgressions right now, while they are alive. Also, make sure they know it's their fault they aren't perfect because, gosh darn it! they just aren't trying hard enough.

What are we talking here, attitudes… or the facts of Humanity, if you wish to live in denial of a flaw in human nature then so be it, however, we are by fact, short of perfection, both moral and physical, the new testament Greek translation of the word sin is ‘missing the target/mark’ Do we all achieve our targets all the time? or is it as Paul writes in the new testament, often, that what we want to do, we fail at, and that what we don’t want to do, we do! That being the case (certainly in my experience of my own life), it would seem to me that we are naturally flawed!
‘Inherited Sin ’ seems to me to be totally feasible, or is it just the religious connotation/aspect of these two words that you have difficulty with?

’And make them teach the same miserable stuff to their children’

Yes, as said, it is ‘miserable stuff’ but isn’t it better to accept the truth that humans are flawed and therefore, be able to work with that with reality, perhaps the acceptance that all humans have inherited flaws/ imperfection, would not lead to such strong faith in other fellow humans capabilities in the likes of Hitler etc etc. but rather consider that they too are ‘ faulty goods’ and perhaps not to be trusted entirely.
Of course, it is also the fact that most people do aspire to do/be better and that aspect should be encouraged and emphasised but whilst not forgetting this 'inherited flaw' aspect of human nature. Not punishing it, just accepting it as the reality.

[Dreadful Scathe]

or the facts of Humanity, if you wish to live in denial of a flaw in human nature then so be it, however, we are by fact, short of perfection, both moral and physical

Thats not how i read Barrys criticism. it was NOT a denail of a "flaw" in human nature, it was disgust at the negativity surrounding the obsession with perfection. I think its quite negative of anyone to think of basic human nature as a flaw and to focus on something we cannot attain. Do you really think thats a healthy attitude to have ? Whats more important though is the very idea that perfection is something we should even care about - there are all sorts of moral, social, mental and physical goals we can strive for, but this shouldnt be the most important thing in life - just one of many. Endless guilt is something the human race can do without. So this is NOT a flaw to my mind, no more than having 5 fingers on each hand is a "flaw".

the new testament Greek translation of the word sin is ‘missing the target/mark’ Do we all achieve our targets all the time?

Indeed not. Which is a very good thing - yet with that translation, "missing your target/mark" would be an "evil" thing to do, god doesnt like sin after all. So the very idea that the targets you miss every day or "sinful" is defeatist, negative and very fascist .

Of course, it is also the fact that most people do aspire to do/be better and that aspect should be encouraged and emphasised but whilst not forgetting this 'inherited flaw' aspect of human nature. Not punishing it, just accepting it as the reality.

I think not calling it a "flaw" would be a better start We are all animals, with varying degrees of intelligence and one group of animals idea of perfection is not the same as anothers.

[Lynn]

We are all animals, with varying degrees of intelligence and one group of animals idea of perfection is not the same as anothers.

And therein lies the problems in this discussion.

If you are talking about 'humanity' and leaving God out of the picture, of course you are going to not understand the concept of 'sin'. You can only understand sin and falling short of God's standards if you accept that God has set standards in the first place.

I believe in God - the God of the Bible. I have a question for those who have no belief in God - from where do you draw your standards of morality? How do you decide what is acceptable behaviour? And if its just based on your own opinions, not on any system of belief, how do you then judge other people's behaviour - just as it affects you personally? Genuine question.

[Raul]

I have a question for those who have no belief in God - from where do you draw your standards of morality? How do you decide what is acceptable behaviour? And if its just based on your own opinions, not on any system of belief, how do you then judge other people's behaviour - just as it affects you personally? Genuine question.

Generally I aim to do what is for the better good of everyone. This includes avoidance of judgement.

For example, a person who does something wrong will often incur the wrath of others I try to see this not as something that makes me feel superior but something that is there to make people examine their own lives for their own weaknesses. We often learn more from others who are different from us than those who are the same.

[Aleks]

I believe in God - the God of the Bible.

I believe in God, but not the God of any particular religion. For me religion, being a man-made and man-managed system of belief is fundamentally flawed (as Wes says, if we are by nature flawed it stands to reason that any systems we create are also flawed). Most of these systems are based on a judgement system of 'right' and 'wrong'. I believe that only God should judge me and my actions, which is another reason why I prefer to avoid religious groups who, in my experience, are far too eager to sit in judgement. I live my life making choices that I hope, when the time comes for my God to weigh my decisions and actions, on balance, to be more 'right' than 'wrong'.

I also hope that my actions are perceived as those usually associated with 'christian' behaviour, despite my reluctance to affiliate myself with a particular religion.

[Lynn]

Interesting that 'judgement' is an issue for people and I agree that the Christian church can be too judgemental - mostly on issues that aren't very Biblical and therefore not very Christian! And a lot of it is judging outward things - eg as long as a person seems to be 'doing the right thing' then their attitudes aren't challenged and I think that isn't what the Bible teaches. Sometimes the church can almost be more like a social club where people are expected to fit in and conform and I don't think that is the way God wants it to be.

Biblical Christianity should not sit in judgement, but should be accepting of people and love them.