What does it mean to be a Christian

[Gus]

My thoughts on this were started by comments made under (now deleted) ‘Cast the First Stone’ thread. Someone was accused of being a hypocrite because, though a Christian, they didn’t follow all the bibles direction to the letter. I think there is a general misconception. The Bible, and its interpretations, lay out guidelines that followers try to adhere to. No one expects to be perfects … they make their best efforts to follow those edicts. Phrases like “turn the other cheek” are often taken out of context by those who like to take advantage or have fun at someone else’s expense.

There are two core messages of Christianity (and maybe other religions) Love (respect ?) God above all else, and love thy fellow man. It’s the second that causes the challenge. Its very easy to be nice to someone who is nice or to help someone in need … buts it’s a very different challenge to try to like someone who is offensive, aggressive … or just a ‘nasty piece of work’ etc. but does this failure to meet the guidelines of the bible stop someone from being able to call themselves a Christian or give others the right to ridicule them?

[Lynn]

There are two core messages of Christianity (and maybe other religions) Love (respect ?) God above all else, and love thy fellow man. It’s the second that causes the challenge. Its very easy to be nice to someone who is nice or to help someone in need … buts it’s a very different challenge to try to like someone who is offensive, aggressive … or just a ‘nasty piece of work’ etc. but does this failure to meet the guidelines of the bible stop someone from being able to call themselves a Christian or give others the right to ridicule them?

Biblical Christianity is very clear - its about admitting that we can't measure up to being 'perfect' and sinless and acknowledging that the only person who ever could was Jesus. And that he accepted our punishment when he was crucified - so being a Christian is really about being forgiven by God. (I can give verses for all this if anyone wants).

So being a Christian is about what we believe - we are made right with God through the actions of Christ, not our own actions. Therefore its not what we do or how we behave that makes someone a Christian - but being a Christian should make us seek to behave in a certain way and the Bible is full of examples of this.

Basically the first step in 'becoming' a Christian is admitting we 'fail to meet the guidelines of the Bible'. Therefore doing so does not mean someone has to stop calling themselves a Christian, its simply acknowledging we aren't perfect!

However that is Biblical Christianity - there is also what you might call 'cultural Christianity' where someone calls themselves a Christian because they live in a Christian country, or go to church, but don't actually have a faith in the God of the Bible. That means they may be trying to follow the 'guidelines' of the Bible without having any source of strength from personal faith and that must be a difficult way to live.

[Andy McGregor]

(what she said)

Lynn is on her home ground on this one. Don't even think about disagreeing with her - there's fire and brimstone to follow

As the person accused of the hypocrisy I believe that Caro was introducing a spurious argument because she had no other one. And she was giving us an example of her hypocricy in the process (although she secretly wants to have my babies ). Saying that you disagree with somebody's beliefs and then saying they are wrong because think they don't adhere to those beliefs you don't personally follow is a bit convoluted, but hypocrisy just the same.

[Gus]

As the person accused of the hypocrisy I believe that Caro was introducing a spurious argument because she had no other one. And she was giving us an example of her hypocricy in the process (although she secretly wants to have my babies ). Saying that you disagree with somebody's beliefs and then saying they are wrong because think they don't adhere to those beliefs you don't personally follow is a bit convoluted, but hypocrisy just the same.

Andy .... and I'm NOT setting myself up as perfect form this respect ... but shouldn't ones faith be judged by deeds. I think that, maybe, a better way to express such thoughts is by gentle discussion (PM) rather than the 'naming and shaming'. We both know people in the MJ world who are maybe far more deserving of wrath. Its the example of Forum Christians (need a sub-group? ) like Ste and Will who persuaded me that going in all guns blazing is not exactly the best example of putting God's word into practice

[ducasi]

So is it OK just to "try" to be be good? You're at the Pearly Gates, you've spend your life doing bad things, "but Peter, I was trying to be good – I'm only human!"

I don't think so. If you're trying to be Christian, you should "seek to behave in a certain way", and if someone points out that you're not doing a good job of it, rather than attacking them, you should maybe look inward.

[Gus]

So is it OK just to "try" to be be good? You're at the Pearly Gates, you've spend your life doing bad things, "but Peter, I was trying to be good – I'm only human!

Everyone is entitled to their view ... but my take on it is that 'trying' is probably a bit better than not giving a stuff and just living your life for yourself.

My experience has been that there are many who profess to be Christians, e.g. the US TV Evanagelists, but who fail to live up to even average standards of 'godliness' whereas the true Christians seem to just get on with it and are rarely noted for their good deeds.

[Andy McGregor]

Andy .... and I'm NOT setting myself up as perfect form this respect ... but shouldn't ones faith be judged by deeds. I think that, maybe, a better way to express such thoughts is by gentle discussion (PM) rather than the 'naming and shaming'. We both know people in the MJ world who are maybe far more deserving of wrath. Its the example of Forum Christians (need a sub-group? ) like Ste and Will who persuaded me that going in all guns blazing is not exactly the best example of putting God's word into practice

I don't think I was "shaming" Caro. She seems to like baiting me and I enjoy sparring with her

This "naming" was a gentle invitation to start round 12

And you are right that there are people in the world of MJ who are deserving of shame. Caro is not one of them. I've no idea if I've met her but I rather like the way she is so outspoken in her beliefs and believe that our child will be both attractive and intelligent - or a ninja warrior

And I have done PM with Caro. Two of my last 6 sent messages were to her. And my most recent negative rep was from her. On that occasion she was right too

[Lynn]

So is it OK just to "try" to be be good? You're at the Pearly Gates, you've spend your life doing bad things, "but Peter, I was trying to be good – I'm only human!"

Definitely not! That was my whole point - no matter how hard we try we can never be perfect. And to 'get in at the pearly gates' as it were based on what we have done, you would need to have been perfect for every second of your life, never even having had a bad thought! None of us can measure up to that.

That's why Christianity is about grace - forgiveness we don't deserve on our own merit, but that we can recieve on Christ's merit - if we are willing to accept it.

Basically you can't 'try' to be a Christian - you would always fail - its not about how good you 'try' to be, but about accepting God's forgiveness.

[ducasi]

Basically you can't 'try' to be a Christian - you would always fail - its not about how good you 'try' to be, but about accepting God's forgiveness.

Perhaps a bit of forgiveness and understanding of our fellow men and women also counts for something?

[Lynn]

Perhaps a bit of forgiveness and understanding of our fellow men and women also counts for something?

Definitely - that flows out of our being forgiven by God. Or it should!

And yes, you are right in that if someone is being really unforgiving and unpleasant to another person they should look inwards.

A personal example - a while ago I was angry with a friend. As my anger built up at thinking of what they had said/done, I stopped and looked at my own actions. I realised what I'd said and done had been wrong too and my anger towards them completely melted away. Admitting this to myself and them meant we were able to resolve the situation and restore the friendship.

[Caro]

My thoughts on this were started by comments made under (now deleted) ‘Cast the First Stone’ thread. Someone was accused of being a hypocrite because, though a Christian, they didn’t follow all the bibles direction to the letter. I think there is a general misconception.

I'll be nice here and put your misconceptions Gus on fact that you probably read that now deleted thread quickly and don't exactly remember what I said.

As the person accused of the hypocrisy I believe that Caro was introducing a spurious argument because she had no other one.

I'm insulted. Seriously, no smiley here, if you think that really is the thruth I've done a pretty bad job argumenting on this forum.



(for once) I'm quite busy this afternoon and haven't got time to respond properly to this, but my reaction and consequent comment about 'throwing the first stone' was triggered by the ardour some people had to 'rub it in', or more accurately in that case, humiliate others.
I said it was all the more shocking when those people were claiming all over the place that they were good christians.

I have a fairly good understanding of what it takes to be a christian btw and sometimes once need a little gentle reminder of the values they stand for... anger is a powerful thing that can lure you away oh so easily.

I'll be back later if really you are interested in why I think you should think a little more about human rights, dignity and compassion Andy.

[Andy McGregor]

I'll be back later if really you are interested in why I think you should think a little more about human rights, dignity and compassion Andy.

Ahh, all's right with the world again

We just need to think of names...

[Raul]

I am not a Christian.

There are many who call themselves Christians or Moslems or Jews but their behaviour, particularly when spouting about religion, appears to be an insult to their religion.

They go on and on about the writings and teachings but do not visibly apply the principles in the spirit that they proclaim. To me a Christian would try to live his life in a Christlike way, a Moslem like Mohammed and a Jew like Jehovah.

Compassion, forgivenes and remembering that we are all doing what we call living, together. When all the superficialities are peeled off we are very much the same all of us.

[Gus]

I am not a Christian.

There are many who call themselves Christians or Moslems or Jews but their behaviour, particularly when spouting about religion, appears to be an insult to their religion.

They go on and on about the writings and teachings but do not visibly apply the principles in the spirit that they proclaim. To me a Christian would try to live his life in a Christlike way, a Moslem like Mohammed and a Jew like Jehovah.

Compassion, forgivenes and remembering that we are all doing what we call living, together. When all the superficialities are peeled off we are very much the same all of us.

There are some important people in my life who have stood up a shining example as what I aspire to as a Christian .. yet they were not Christians with a big 'C' but christians ... i.e. people who followed a path godliness without seeing the need to go to church or even being aware of the depths of Christ's teachings.

My father was one of them. At the wake I remember how many people referred to him as being a great christian man ... despite the fact that the last time he went to Church (while alive) was to get married.

[stewart38]

Basically the first step in 'becoming' a Christian is admitting we 'fail to meet the guidelines of the Bible'. Therefore doing so does not mean someone has to stop calling themselves a Christian, its simply acknowledging we aren't perfect!

i.e. we behave immorally but because we feel guilty about it, its ok ?

[straycat]

Saying that you disagree with somebody's beliefs and then saying they are wrong because think they don't adhere to those beliefs you don't personally follow is a bit convoluted, but hypocrisy just the same.

Why? I don't exactly share George Bush's stated Christian beliefs, but I regard him as an evil hypocrite (amongst other things) for the fact that his actions go a long way towards contradicting those same beliefs.

Does that make me a hypocrite in your book? It doesn't in mine.

[MartinHarper]

My experience is that when I set out to do something, I routinely achieve it. I decide "I will drive to Worester and meet my friends", and then I drive to Worcester and meet my friends. It is rare for me to get hopelessly lost and end up in Bristol. If I decide to do something good, I likewise routinely achieve it. I decide "I will give some money to cancer research", and then I give some money to cancer research. Similarly for bad things.

My experience is that a proportion of Christians, who apparently are intending to do Christian things, routinely fail to behave in a Christian manner. There are three possible explanations for this:

* They are less competent than me. Where I am able to achieve things, they are serial failures.
* They have less self-control than me. Where I am able to control my actions, their inner demons prevent them from doing good things.
* They might be lieing about their religion. Where I am open about my lack of faith, they weave a web of deception to hide theirs.

I suspect that the last one is most likely. It must be tough to maintain a Christian belief in today's world.

To me a Christian would try to live his life in a Christlike way, a Moslem like Mohammed and a Jew like Jehovah.

I think that "what would Jehovah do?" is an unlikely question for a Jew, unless the answer is "smite my enemies with a variety of interesting plagues". Vikings face a similar problem:
Giant In the Playground Games

[Gus]

My experience is that when I set out to do something, I routinely achieve it.

My experience is that a proportion of Christians, who apparently are intending to do Christian things, routinely fail to behave in a Christian manner. There are three possible explanations for this:

* They are less competent than me. Where I am able to achieve things, they are serial failures.
* They have less self-control than me. Where I am able to control my actions, their inner demons prevent them from doing good things.
* They might be lieing about their religion. Where I am open about my lack of faith, they weave a web of deception to hide theirs.

I suspect that the last one is most likely. It must be tough to maintain a Christian belief in today's world.

While I acknowledge your belief in what you have said and I don't doubt your belief in it .... WHAT ARE YOU ON? Can yo so blithely dismiss all the worlds religions in a piece of non-functional twisted logic?? I have 'set out' to be become a world class MJ instructor, very successful consultant and happy husband. I have made progress towards all but have obviously not achieved .. so am I then lying about my goals weaving a web of deception to cover my failure?

Would you count people who have contributed so much to Humanity, e.g. Mother Teresa, Dalai Llama, MLK, Ghandi etc. These people followed their faith at great personal cost yet would not claim to have achieved the end goal. Liars?

[MartinHarper]

While I acknowledge your belief in what you have said and I don't doubt your belief in it .... WHAT ARE YOU ON? Can yo so blithely dismiss all the worlds religions in a piece of non-functional twisted logic??

I wasn't really saying anything about all the worlds religions, merely about a proportion of Christians.

I have 'set out' to be become a world class MJ instructor, very successful consultant and happy husband. I have made progress towards all but have obviously not achieved .. so am I then lying about my goals weaving a web of deception to cover my failure?

These are grand end goals that take many years and may not even be possible. The Christian may fail to be a perfect Christian, and you may fail to be a world class MJ instructor. Such things are normal. I was thinking more about individual acts. For example, as part of your grand goal to be a world class MJ instructor, you might teach a class the First Move Mexican. You don't accidentally end up teaching them motorcycle maintenance.

[straycat]

My experience is that a proportion of Christians, who apparently are intending to do Christian things, routinely fail to behave in a Christian manner. There are three possible explanations for this:

I don't think this is a religious issue. I think it's a human one. I remember going on a self-improvement seminar, where I observed three different main reactions...
One group didn't really get it, and didn't benefit much.
One group got it, adopted what was taught, made it theirs, and made things better for themselves.
One group seemed to get it, and adapted what was taught so they could justify their own problems to themselves, so they didn't have to do anything about them.

Religious teachings often have this problem. They can give one (depending on the religion) a wonderful code to live by that can give life sense and meaning. But slightly twisted, they can give people a sense that right is on their side, no matter what. I don't think it's the religion at fault here - it's the person, and the way they've chosen to (mis)interpret it.

I saw a lovely example of this in a cartoon, many years ago.

Ruminations of a wealthy person:

It says in the Good Book:
"It is easier for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven than for a camel" ...
As one might reasonably expect!