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Thread: What is an advanced dancer ?

  1. #21
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    Re: What is an advanced dancer ?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    In the MJ world, that includes pretty much all of us.

    I reckon there are maybe 10 advanced dancers in the UK MJ scene.


    Assuming that you are right, even if these 10 entered every advanced competition, then the rest would just be cannon fodder. You wouldn't care to name the 10 would you?

    The term is relative. Advanced compared to what?

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    Re: What is an advanced dancer ?

    i think in DJs definition here, Advanced means "at the level where it would not be humanly possible to take the dance style any further" or "continually innovative" or "Gods amongst men" etc...and he's probably right then

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    Re: What is an advanced dancer ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    i think in DJs definition here, Advanced means "at the level where it would not be humanly possible to take the dance style any further" or "continually innovative" or "Gods amongst men" etc...and he's probably right then
    Or

    The best 10 are advanced and the rest are mediocre.




    (which also explains why there are always only 10 of them!)

  4. #24
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    Re: What is an advanced dancer ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Raul View Post
    Assuming that you are right, even if these 10 entered every advanced competition, then the rest would just be cannon fodder. You wouldn't care to name the 10 would you?
    We've had that thread already

    Quote Originally Posted by Raul View Post
    The term is relative. Advanced compared to what?
    Ah, but I don't think it is relative.

    • If it's relative, then it's an easy definition - an advanced dancer is "someone in the top X%", and all we need to discuss is the value of X.
    • If it's non-relative, which is my position, then it's based on a set of relatively-objective criteria. Unfortunately, those criteria are non-trivial to define.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lou View Post
    Ten? Let me guess - Ethel's one?
    Hey, I like the number, so sue me

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    Re: What is an advanced dancer ?

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    I've often wonder what a advanced dancer is ??

    You do 6 weeks or so of beginners and then jump to the intermediates and there you stay for years. However many people would never call themselves 'advanced'. More of a comfort to be in the ‘advance intermediate’ etc ?

    I said to someone recently I was a dancer she laughed and said you strutting your stuff doesn’t make you a dancer your not Freddie Astaire . Was he an exceptional dancer ?

    Is Amir etc advanced or exceptional ?

    I guess its all in degrees and perception ?

    I like to think im ‘above average intermediate’ after 13/14 yrs of ‘dancing’
    It all depends where you sit and also what pond you swim in.

    My good friend who was training for a champs had been dancing 11 years, first in NZ then in Aussie... He asked me where I saw him.... I did ask him, are you sure you want me to answer...

    I said, I saw him as upper intermediate, you do the moves well, you are technically correct and look hot.... now the challenge is to "dance" the moves.
    Maybe I have a harsh scale...

    When teaching advanced classes, you are looking to up the standard from intermediate, for some people they think this means more moves taught quicker with complex bits, for others, they see it as more complex moves, that are totally new to people. I like to go for the totally new approach, but then I sometimes aim too high, as many people in an advanced class, do not pick it up as quickly as I would expect those who I train with regularly to do so.

    Having danced regularly in UK, Aussie and also spent some time in NZ, Aussie intermediate classes IMHO are on par to a Advanced class in the UK, Beginner in Aussie is on par to intermediate in uk... not saying this is right or best policy... I just have to adjust to where I teach

    Funny thing is, I no longer compete at champs and I mainly do beginner moves in freestyle, with variations and timing changes to the music, one person recently commented that I used to be advanced but now dance like a beginner...

    Oh well, I am now a beginner, happy to dance with other beginners and just try to make sure the girl enjoys the dance... feels the music and the flow.

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    Re: What is an advanced dancer ?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    In the MJ world, that includes pretty much all of us.

    I reckon there are maybe 10 advanced dancers in the UK MJ scene.

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Doesn't answer the question.
    There were hundreds of persons named there including probably "my favourite follow is x because she is my current/potential girlfriend". A favourite dancer is not necessarily an advanced dancer.

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    Re: What is an advanced dancer ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    When teaching advanced classes, you are looking to up the standard from intermediate, for some people they think this means more moves taught quicker with complex bits, for others, they see it as more complex moves, that are totally new to people.
    I don't see advanced as either of those. Advanced to me is about body movement and musicality.

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    Re: What is an advanced dancer ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    I don't see advanced as either of those. Advanced to me is about body movement and musicality.
    Yeah that... me too....

    was just talking as to what some expect.


    Try doing a body movement and musicallity class to 1000 dancers, who think they are advanced,,,, and see how many get it.....

    A few will get it and love it, others, will be bemused.. fortunately this is starting to change....

  9. #29
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    Trying to define Advanced in absolute terms

    There are a lot of things that are needed to be an advanced social dancer.

    Connection
    Lead & Follow
    Musicality
    Individual technique
    Partnering technique
    Balance
    Quality of movement
    Variety
    Natural ability
    Floorcraft
    (And no doubt there are plenty more...)

    Most good dancers would have strengths & weaknesses in this list. They would also have their priorities as to what they consider important. But to be advanced you can't really have any weaknesses.

    By this definition I'd only rate 2 men I've seen as being truly advanced, but at least 10 ladies.
    Last edited by DavidB; 25th-September-2007 at 01:56 PM.

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    Re: What is an advanced dancer ?

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    ask a 1000 people what a 'beginner' is say in the dancing world and they would say someone just starting out or not very good
    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    In the MJ world, that includes pretty much all of us.
    A beginner is by definition "someone just starting out" – someone who is "not very good" but has been dancing more than even a year is not a beginner. They might not be of "intermediate" standard, but they are no longer beginning.

    Intermediate and advanced are relative descriptions of standard. "Beginner" is not. Unfortunately there's no nice word to describe someone who is not of a very good standard despite their experience.

    In the MJ world, advanced must mean "better than most", which if we could rate everyone, it'd be an arbitrary percentage that sits at the top of these ratings – maybe the top 20% (using Martin's number of 200 advanced dancers out of 1000 at a weekender workshop.)

    It's also very clear that the vast majority of these advanced MJ dancers are not advanced in professional terms, but that's no surprise.
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Trying to define Advanced in absolute terms

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidB View Post
    By this definition I'd only rate 2 men I've seen as being truly advanced, but at least 10 ladies.
    No wonder organisers find it's not really worth the effort to run "advanced" classes if there really are so few advanced dancers.
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Re: What is an advanced dancer ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    I don't see advanced as either of those. Advanced to me is about body movement and musicality.
    This implies that an advanced hip-hop dancer with loads of great body movement and musicality is already an advanced MJ dancer, even before they've taken one class.
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Re: Trying to define Advanced in absolute terms

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    No wonder organisers find it's not really worth the effort to run "advanced" classes if there really are so few advanced dancers.
    You don't run Advanced classes for Advanced dancers. You run them for people who aspire to be advanced dancers.

  14. #34
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    Re: Trying to define Advanced in absolute terms

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidB View Post
    By this definition I'd only rate 2 men I've seen as being truly advanced, but at least 10 ladies.
    David

    Do you think this may be balanced this way because you dance as a lead? I know you have judged an awful lot of competitions which may also include DWAS which could be classed as social dancing I guess but you did say that you were talking about social dancing. I know I have little first-hand awareness of many other leader's abilities as I do not dance with them nor often sit and watch.

    Robert

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    Re: Trying to define Advanced in absolute terms

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidB View Post
    You don't run Advanced classes for Advanced dancers. You run them for people who aspire to be advanced dancers.
    Depends where. I've been to some-event-abroad-or-other-whose-name-I-temporarily-forget-honest where if you're not an advanced dancer, you shouldn't even think about doing the advanced classes. Needless to say, these classes are taught by god-like teachers.

    Closer to home though, it seems to be the case that Advanced classes are attended by people who think they're advanced...

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    Re: What is an advanced dancer ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    A beginner is by definition "someone just starting out" – someone who is "not very good" but has been dancing more than even a year is not a beginner. They might not be of "intermediate" standard, but they are no longer beginning.
    Thats a matter of opinion - if we say they are "starting out" on a journey to be a pro dancer and they are 20 years away from that, then, relatively, they are still beginners So you still have the issue of what they are "beginning"

    Intermediate and advanced are relative descriptions of standard. "Beginner" is not.
    oh yes it is.

    In the MJ world, advanced must mean "better than most",
    I'd rather use it to mean "capable of ADDING to MJ" if they are not creating anything original themselves are they really advanced ? Are you an advanced driver if you are better than most other drivers ? Is that not aiming a bit too low ?

    It's also very clear that the vast majority of these advanced MJ dancers are not advanced in professional terms, but that's no surprise.
    But if you're not using "professional terms" what are you using? A comparison to the rest of the mediocre dancing population ? you may as well not bother...

    Compared to my 2 year old daughter I'm super-duper advanced. Although actually she's not a bad dancer for her age

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    Re: What is an advanced dancer ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    This implies that an advanced hip-hop dancer with loads of great body movement and musicality is already an advanced MJ dancer, even before they've taken one class.
    no it doesn't - i thought it was fairly obvious i meant body movement and musicality specific to dancing MJ not just ANY body movement

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    Re: What is an advanced dancer ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    A beginner is by definition "someone just starting out" – someone who is "not very good" but has been dancing more than even a year is not a beginner. They might not be of "intermediate" standard, but they are no longer beginning.

    Someone who hasn’t learn fundamental moves who 'struggles' in all aspects is still a beginner in my book or do we call them poor intermediates after 6 months regardless of ability. ?? Interesting point

    If you suggest its just time that puts you from beginner to intermediate then more time will put you on a advanced footing. ??

    Maybe poor ,good excellent are better and beginner,intermediate advance always have to be put in some context so has limited use

  19. #39
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: What is an advanced dancer ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    A beginner is by definition "someone just starting out" – someone who is "not very good" but has been dancing more than even a year is not a beginner.
    Depends how long the journey is... I'm still definitely a beginner at Tango, and that's 2 years in.

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    Intermediate and advanced are relative descriptions of standard. "Beginner" is not.
    I disagree - I believe they all describe a level - but admittedly the term "beginner" is ambiguous.

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    Unfortunately there's no nice word to describe someone who is not of a very good standard despite their experience.
    Cerocer?

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    In the MJ world, advanced must mean "better than most"
    Nope - it can be either a relative or an absolute term. Personally I think it's absolute(-ish), but I'll allow for the possibility that is could be relative, if that's the way most other people see it.

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    Re: Trying to define Advanced in absolute terms

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    Do you think this may be balanced this way because you dance as a lead?
    It might be. To some extent it is natural to rate leaders after watching them, and followers after dancing with them. I'm well aware that some people feel completely different to dance with compared to how they look, so it is easy to be wrong about someone.

    However most good dancers are pretty good at leading/following. I think the main factor separating men and ladies would be 'quality of movement'.

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