Dancing out of beat

[Lou]

I'd put it slightly differently... You should be aware of the beat, but you can choose to deliberately ignore it for some parts of the dance, as long as you, umm, "acknowledge" the beat.:

Ooh! I like that. "Acknowledge the beat". What I'm trying to convey to timbp, is that there are Leads who ignore it, as they don't even seem to be aware of its existence (let alone deliberately ignoring it) - and these are the most awkward to dance with.

And, at the risk of bringing in footwork.... it's one of the reasons I don't totally agree that Andy has the One True Way of teaching, as it does encourage that "Marching" style.

[David Bailey]

Ooh! I like that. "Acknowledge the beat". What I'm trying to convey to timbp, is that there are Leads who ignore it, as they don't even seem to be aware of its existence (let alone deliberately ignoring it) - and these are the most awkward to dance with.

Yes, that's reasonable. These people are ignorant of the beat, they're not ignoring it. Although I'm getting seriously pedantic, as usual, I think that's a crucial difference.

And, at the risk of bringing in footwork.... it's one of the reasons I don't totally agree that Andy has the One True Way of teaching, as it does encourage that "Marching" style.

I've never seen Andy's class so I can't comment.

However, Amir's Jango classes focus on walking one-step-per-beat for "Jango-ised" MJ moves, which is quite useful. Let's face it, anything that even mentions a beat is a step up from the average Ceroc class.

[TA Guy]

All I was saying, is that to me, dancing to the beat is far more important, because the beat is what gives the dance the framwork. Perhaps it's because I'm a musician.

Nope, don't think so, I'm not a musician and I agree with that for two reasons.

1) The (type of) beat is mentioned in every definition of MJ I have ever seen. If you don't at least make passing reference to it, you are not dancing MJ IMO.

2) I agree with you, it's the framework. You can muck around outside the framework as much as you like in short bursts (musicality)... but if you create an artificial framework (E.G. dance deliberately consistantly slower to fast music cos a partner can't keep up) or just consistantly ignore the correct beat for whatever reason it looks like what it is, dancing off the beat. I.E. poo.

[JCB]

The last few posts make a good point (i.e. dancing without regard to the beat of the music playing looks and feels ghastly)... but ...
If asking the leader if he is having difficulty hearing the beat is an unconscionable faux-pas, then what?

Follow the lead. Learn to dance out of beat if that is what is led.

That is all I can think to do, because if you try to force a leader onto the beat when he hasn't asked for help, he may well decide that you (along with a surprisingly large number of other women he dances with ) are simply a lousy follower, who back-leads all the time. There are consequences, even though you may manage to force the leader to dance to the beat.

Why is that bad? You'll be dancing to the music. Isn't that A Good Thing?

Actually, Lou, while you are dancing to the music, your rhythmless partner may well only perceive that he is being yanked around, and decide that the cure is a bit more force next time. Congratulations! You have brought into the world another yanker, and one unencumbered by any sense of rhythm: a species justly loathed, as Nebula has pointed out.

Don't lecture us to always suffer a complete lack of rhythm with good grace.

So, how would you suggest followers make things better, without asking the guy if he needs help finding the beat, without back-leading, …and without abandoning him mid-dance ?

[Lou]

So, how would you suggest followers make things better, without asking the guy if he needs help finding the beat, without back-leading, …and without abandoning him mid-dance ?

Well, as you're asking - honestly, I would just dance with you, and cleverly adapt my timing in order to (surrupticiously) help you find the beat. I wouldn't yank you, as I tend to have quite a light hold. If you were aware of it, it would just seem that I took longer to respond to what you wanted. And, sadly, it does mean that if you didn't adjust your timing, you'll probably yank me around uncomfortably, as you'd be gripping tightly and forcing me to move before the previous step was completed. It's not hi-jacking, or back-leading, in the worst sense, as I would be doing what you wanted - just fitting it within the music.

But, again being honest, I'm particularly sensitive to rhythm. I had to leave the room whenever that wretched AA advert came on, because they'd played around with the timing of "You've Got A Friend", and the phrasing/timing was so wrong it would cause me to cringe.

[Lou]

Sorry - coming back to this one, as I've just read back through the posts on this thread again. I've realised that JCB doesn't lead, and that she's being defensive about her husband's learning situation. Sorry. Also, I've been distracted by timbp's comments about advanced musicality, as this thread was originally intended as advice for BEGINNERS!

Yes - it's particularly hard for men learning to lead. I am sympathetic and patient with them (Shuddup, Craig! Yes I am! ). I don't (typically) pull them around, and I imagine my solution is similar to Lory's on the first page of this thread. We do nudge & "backlead", but I can promise you we don't yank. There are many ways to persuade a man to do something you want him to do - and in my experience, excessive force doesn't normally help. A gentle bit of encouragement in the right direction, though....

I stand by my actions - as it does help teach the beginner men to appreciate that there is a beat there, and to acknowledge its existence.

[mabraham]

Why is that bad? You'll be dancing to the music. Isn't that A Good Thing?

If you're a follow doing partner dancing, and not following, you're not dancing regardless of what the music is doing...

[timbp]

Also, I've been distracted by timbp's comments about advanced musicality, as this thread was originally intended as advice for BEGINNERS!

Well, there goes the flame I was writing in response to your earlier comments.

But in response to earlier comments:

Three years ago, I could not find the beat in music. I now get complimented on my musicality.

I now get complimented on my musicality, but I have always been complimented on my lead.

When I started dancing, I quickly learned the moves (that was easy), and then worked on leading the followers through those moves. I concentrated on a clear and gentle lead. At the time, I could not find the beat; if a partner gave me the beat, I could keep to it, but if for any reason we went off time, I would not have known.

Soon I had a group of girls who would dance with me just because I did not hurt them.

My advice in my first post was assuming that the leaders who could not dance on beat were beginners. I was also assuming that their partners were beginners. Probably both assumptions are invalid (please don't tell my lecturers).

[Lou]

If you're a follow doing partner dancing, and not following, you're not dancing regardless of what the music is doing...

However, if you're following your partner, but not dancing to the music, you're still not dancing. You're just like a robot, doing a set of movements.

Dancing is always done to a rhythm. Even if there's no music, there's an underlying rhythm. And both parties have to be aware of it.

To help you understand what I'm saying, think of Dominic Littlewood in Strictly Come Dancing. Whilst he felt that he gave a flawless performance last week, he couldn't understand why he continued to get poor feedback every week from the judges and why he was voted out & not John Barnes. But he couldn't dance to the music, and it just highlights how important it is. You don't want to dance like Dominic, do you?

Well, there goes the flame I was writing in response to your earlier comments.

Thank you.

It's not clear who some of the comments on this thread are addressed to. There are several experienced ladies who have given advice on this thread - particularly in favour of encouraging their partner to dance to the timing of the music. Typically, we don't yank or force our partners. We're guiding and helping.

They shouldn't be ignored through trite soundbites like mabraham's comment above. Of course we should all be dancing together. That's stating the obvious! But, as I said earlier, if we're trying to dance AGAINST the music - well, we're not dancing.

[David Bailey]

To help you understand what I'm saying, think of Dominic Littlewood in Strictly Come Dancing.

Christ, do I have to? He's given small bald men the world over a bad name

You don't want to dance like Dominic, do you?

I don't even want to grop Lilia's bum like Dominic.

They shouldn't be ignored through trite soundbites like mabraham's comment above. Of course we should all be dancing together. That's stating the obvious! But, as I said earlier, if we're trying to dance AGAINST the music - well, we're not dancing.

Whilst I agree with your comments, are you saying it's impossible to dance without music? Because I wouldn't go that far.

[Lou]

Whilst I agree with your comments, are you saying it's impossible to dance without music? Because I wouldn't go that far.

I knew you didn't read my posts but...

Dancing is always done to a rhythm. Even if there's no music, there's an underlying rhythm. And both parties have to be aware of it.

[David Bailey]

I knew you didn't read my posts but...

Sorry, what was that?

What I meant was, do you think it's possible to have a (MJ) dance in silence? Obviously the leader sets the tempo, but I'm not sure how effective that is in communicating a rhythm to a partner, without an external source to reinforce that tempo...

[Lou]

What I meant was, do you think it's possible to have a (MJ) dance in silence? Obviously the leader sets the tempo, but I'm not sure how effective that is in communicating a rhythm to a partner, without an external source to reinforce that tempo...

I don't see why it shouldn't be possible. It'd be far easier than battling music, anyway.

[bigdjiver]

Sorry, what was that?

What I meant was, do you think it's possible to have a (MJ) dance in silence? Obviously the leader sets the tempo, but I'm not sure how effective that is in communicating a rhythm to a partner, without an external source to reinforce that tempo...

I have done MJ with no music playing, and it is one of my treasured memories. The connection was fabulous.

[mabraham]

Why is that bad? You'll be dancing to the music. Isn't that A Good Thing?

If you're a follow doing partner dancing, and not following, you're not dancing regardless of what the music is doing...

However, if you're following your partner, but not dancing to the music, you're still not dancing. You're just like a robot, doing a set of movements.

Agreed.

Which is the better compromise depends on your objective. If you're the follow, who'll only have this 3 minutes and then maybe never suffering this poor lead again, then sure, dancing to the music and ignoring the sod can be the easiest way to have something reasonable going on. If you're the lead, however, you have to dance with yourself all the time... if you get no chance to learn, then you don't, and then you get frustrated, and then you leave, and the follows might wonder why there's a thousand of them and a handful of good leads left at dance events ... or you stay, and never improve, and the follows keep being frustrated with you!

Dancing is always done to a rhythm. Even if there's no music, there's an underlying rhythm. And both parties have to be aware of it.

To help you understand what I'm saying, think of Dominic Littlewood in Strictly Come Dancing. Whilst he felt that he gave a flawless performance last week, he couldn't understand why he continued to get poor feedback every week from the judges and why he was voted out & not John Barnes. But he couldn't dance to the music, and it just highlights how important it is. You don't want to dance like Dominic, do you?

Probably not, by the sounds of it, but I live in Australia, so I won't be seeing him any time soon.

They shouldn't be ignored through trite soundbites like mabraham's comment above. Of course we should all be dancing together. That's stating the obvious! But, as I said earlier, if we're trying to dance AGAINST the music - well, we're not dancing.

My soundbite is trite yes, and incomplete, yes, but so is yours above . As a follow, if he's leading against the music, through ignorance, inability or design, and you're trying to dance with the music by design, then you're at least as wrong as he is. The exception might be, per timbp, that he might have a higher perception of musicality than you and be leading to something you have yet to learn about... You might miss that if you aren't (in the habit of) following... such a leader will be in a different category from the ones off the beat through ignorance and inability, of course.

[NZ Monkey]

... such a leader will be in a different category from the ones off the beat through ignorance and inability, of course.

And obviously so, one would hope

[Lou]

As a follow, if he's leading against the music, through ignorance, inability or design, and you're trying to dance with the music by design, then you're at least as wrong as he is.

And two wrongs don't make a right?

Ah.. but, in this thread, we're not really talking about those who are leading out of time by design, are we. It's really about inexperienced men. Those who need a bit of gentle encouragement in the ways of rhythm. Helping them with their timing is for the greater good of the dance. And, in my experience, only the most miniscule amount of them try to continue in their rhythm blind way and turn into the Dreaded Yanker. Most start to hear and understand the beat. After all, it does take practice to learn something.

The exception might be, per timbp, that he might have a higher perception of musicality than you and be leading to something you have yet to learn about... You might miss that if you aren't (in the habit of) following... such a leader will be in a different category from the ones off the beat through ignorance and inability, of course.

Yeah - but as I replied to timpb - those men who have higher perception of musicality won't have a poor sense of rhythm. So it's a moot point. IMHO, or course.

[mabraham]

Yeah - but as I replied to timpb - those men who have higher perception of musicality won't have a poor sense of rhythm. So it's a moot point. IMHO, or course.

No, I don't think this point raised by timbp is moot. If the lead is experienced, and leading against the beat for some reason, if a follow is in the habit of "correcting" leads to dance to the beat, then their chance of experiencing what such a lead has to offer is worse than it would otherwise be. He might even be leading weirdly to prevent the follow getting injured... who'd want an injury as an offering to the gods of dancing on the beat?

[Lou]

If the lead is experienced, and leading against the beat for some reason, if a follow is in the habit of "correcting" leads to dance to the beat, then their chance of experiencing what such a lead has to offer is worse than it would otherwise be...

Does that mean that you now accept that it's OK to help beginners find the beat (so long as we don't yank them into position)?

[mabraham]

Does that mean that you now accept that it's OK to help beginners find the beat (so long as we don't yank them into position)?

I never said it wasn't OK to help gently...

One of my treasured dance memories came 18 months ago in my first dance with the owner of CMJ, one of the big dance companies up in Sydney. Pards and I had gone up for a workshop the next day and had gone to a dance party the night before. I'd sat out much of the night, thanks to one of those <censored> beginner ladies who injured my shoulder. Nicky bounced up and asked for a dance, as she does, and of course I accepted. Being an unknown bloke, nobody had asked me to dance all night. (Pards was fighting them off with a stick, however.) I managed to lose the beat at one point when she hijacked in a way I hadn't seen before... so she hijacked again, and led me back onto the beat. Then she relinquished the lead and we got on with the dance. :notworthy: This worked because she did this to a guy who might have been able to listen, at a time when he would be listening, who'd demonstrated earlier in the dance he was ready for the message, i.e. "dude, the beat is here".

I rather suspect there's a lot of unreceptive men out there, either through not knowing the objective, not being able to listen to the message, or simply not being able to implement the message, and some women less capable than Nicky at communicating said message, so it won't work well all the time! YMMV!