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Thread: Dancing out of beat

  1. #61
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    Re: Dancing out of beat

    Quote Originally Posted by JCB View Post
    [SIZE=1][COLOR=Silver]
    I doubt anyone actually dances to the beat of an imaginary drummer intentionally.
    Hey I doubt most people are boring intentionally either.* I still prefer my analogy, since at times you put up with someone who is boring, and at other times you don't, and it is your own personal judgment call. Not hearing the beat is not an affliction. It is lack of awareness, which can be helped by drawing someone’s attention to it.

    Speaking from experience, I had a partner who used to help me find the beat, and partly thanks to her I now find it easy. It was not a problem that would ever have been addressed in a normal class.

    Some people are good at giving advice, and if you are one of them, and think you could help someone without hurting or offending them, then go for it. I would prefer to see people go through a stage of bouncing their hand to the beat rather than not dancing to the beat at all.

    The are countless reasons why it may or may not be appropriate to say something, so any one answer to these kinds of questions will be wrong much of the time. More often than not though I would suggest backleading, and if that doesn't work, gently saying something.




    *Incedently, at times I do dance to the beat of an imaginary drummer. He is sometimes better than the real one. Also, Milton Erikson and Noam Chomsky are two people who admit to being boring on purpose, one as a hynotist and one to avoid a personality cult.
    Last edited by Amir; 21st-September-2007 at 06:33 PM. Reason: to add that you would still be welcome at my Jango workshops but please don't laugh at my stammer.

  2. #62
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    Re: Dancing out of beat

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post

    Some people are good at giving advice, and if you are one of them, and think you could help someone without hurting or offending them, then go for it. I would prefer to see people go through a stage of bouncing their hand to the beat rather than not dancing to the beat at all.

    The are countless reasons why it may or may not be appropriate to say something, so any one answer to these kinds of questions will be wrong much of the time.


    At last one teacher who is saying that he is still seeking the answers like the rest of us rather than banging on about absolute right ways of doing things.

    Some things work better for some people. Some things work most of the time. Teachers should on the whole encourage people to take up ideas to test and explore rather than dish out 'gospel truth'. What works for them personally and what they have discovered over years of practice may not work at all for someone else. By all means teach it but you cannot say that this is the only way to do things.

  3. #63
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    Re: Dancing out of beat

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    But it wasn't the "dancing offbeat" that was the problem, was it? It was the "dangerous and rough pulling", yes?

    Different situation, I'd say.
    He was dangerously rough because being so totally off beat he was trying to overcompensate by trying to make me move off-beat, too. That was the root of the problem - so, no, it wasn't a different situation.

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    Re: Dancing out of beat

    Quote Originally Posted by nebula View Post
    He was dangerously rough because being so totally off beat he was trying to overcompensate by trying to make me move off-beat, too. That was the root of the problem - so, no, it wasn't a different situation.
    You said you were following the beat he was leading, at least initially. How come he wasn't succeeding at making you move off-beat? If that makes any sense.

    (one of these days I'll get a dance with a dangerous leader, and I'll understand this kind of post)

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    Re: Dancing out of beat

    Is there always just one danceable beat?

    999 times out of a thousand MJ tracks maybe, but always?

    Granted you could tell if you had the musical score in front of you - but we don't, and have to rely on our ears.

    If the musicians make the 1st and 3rd beats equally strong (or the difference is that 1st beats have x instrument but not y and 3rd beats have y instrument but not x) then it's a more subjective thing.

    Especially if it's an instrumental track with not much in the way of phrasing, for instance.

    As an example, some tracks start with a few instruments playing, and you find a beat, then more instruments come in and you realise you were on the wrong beat after all. But it shows that you couldn't tell from one part of the music.
    Love dance, will travel

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    Re: Dancing out of beat

    I'm afraid beats bore me to death. I just dance to the music to the best of my ability.

    Granted; some tracks consist of little more than boomatty bangatty beats. I avoid them like the plauge, as also those dancers afflicted with the dreaded driving vertical bounce; so far as I possibly can.

    So it may be that Connie would find me offbeat as I attempt to respond to and interpret the music within the constraints of our (virtual in this case) connection. So I'm not going thumpitty, thumpitty, thump to a constant count; I'm accelerating, decellerating, floating, hanging, dreaming even, as I lead my partner into a move challenged dance.

  7. #67
    Registered User nebula's Avatar
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    Re: Dancing out of beat

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    You said you were following the beat he was leading, at least initially. How come he wasn't succeeding at making you move off-beat? If that makes any sense.

    (one of these days I'll get a dance with a dangerous leader, and I'll understand this kind of post)
    I certainly was trying to... at first...
    I only started resisting because I realised the danger - does that make any more sense?

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    Re: Dancing out of beat

    I was dancing with a first timer last week and she said "Oh good, you're dancing slowly."
    As far as I was concerned I was just concentrating on leading her and adapting to her. We were doing the moves smoothly, I felt connected. I still have no idea whether I was dancing to the beat, all I know is that it was working beautifully, I was enjoying it, and she appeared to be. I just trusted my instincts and carried on, and still have no idea if I was in time or not.

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    Re: Dancing out of beat

    Guys, if you know you need help, ask for it! (Here is a hint: if you are a leader who thinks every follower in the world back-leads, then maybe.... )

    Then I would agree wholeheartedly with Amir’s advice to back-lead the beat. No-one but my husband has ever asked. (but, then, tact isn’t a skill I have to any great degree)

    Nebula, surely the problem is still the leader treating the follower like a bit of machinery that isn’t behaving as he thinks it should, and tries to muscle his way through? (this kind of Neanderthal probably isn’t generally that great with machinery either, applying the “if in doubt, get a bigger hammer” approach to virtually any DIY project he faces. )
    The dancing out of time just makes it harder to protect yourself as a follower, because the lead is hard to predict. If the out-of-time lead were a gentle invitation (thank you DavidJames!), rather than an aggressive “final demand,” our limbs would be safe from harm.
    Until I get a more convincing argument, I think I will continue as I have been.
    I try a couple of gentle “nudges” to get back on track. A couple of times, when that didn’t work, I have found the courage (with some-one I have chatted with in classes,) to say something like ”I’m finding the rhythm on this track is a bit hard to follow.” (even though in one case the bass-line was thumping away like a Harley on idle! ) If he shakes his head dismissively, I shut up, and let him drive.

    If the leader doesn’t realize he has a problem, I don’t see how my attempt to “fix” things can end up as anything other than a stylized wrestling match. Besides, I am not that great a follower. I have no formal musical training. And I am still a beginner. I’ll leave rhythm adjustments to the experts. And should I find myself on the dance floor with a rhythm-less cave-man, I will leave, explaining that my BUPA cover doesn’t extend to him.
    Nebula, (or anyone who has been a yankee, as in dance partner to a yanker, not a player on a NY baseball team), do you find the advice, “make your arm limp” useful? If so, what am I doing wrong? My brief attempts at “noodle-arm” garnered me a sore elbow, then a sore wrist (hyper-extended joints). I feel safer with a lot of constant springy resistance.

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    Re: Dancing out of beat

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Sorry, but this sounds like incredibly dumb advice.

    It's not a wrestling match, for God's sake, it's a dance.

    Leads are invitational, not commanding. If a follower refuses your invitation, then she refuses; and she may have good reasons for doing so (e.g. injury), so a good lead should respect that decision and work within the constraints of what the follower accepts.

    In this case, If a follower clearly wants to raise her hand up high, then I'd work around it - for example, either by switching to moves that work in that position, or by leaving that hand alone and using other leads. I certainly wouldn't force her hand to a place she's not comfortable with.
    What a load of codswallop......................

  11. #71
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    Re: Dancing out of beat

    Quote Originally Posted by JCB View Post
    “make your arm limp” useful? If so, what am I doing wrong? My brief attempts at “noodle-arm” garnered me a sore elbow, then a sore wrist (hyper-extended joints). I feel safer with a lot of constant springy resistance.
    Going limp is only good in the short term. If you do it throughout a dance he can try to "fix the problem" by applying more and more force! Springy reistance is much safer. The other big thing I've found is to control the distance between you. Try staying in a bit closer (if you don't know check-checks try asking some of the women where you dance).

  12. #72
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    Re: Dancing out of beat

    Nebula, surely the problem is still the leader treating the follower like a bit of machinery that isn’t behaving as he thinks it should, and tries to muscle his way through? (this kind of Neanderthal probably isn’t generally that great with machinery either, applying the “if in doubt, get a bigger hammer” approach to virtually any DIY project he faces. )
    The dancing out of time just makes it harder to protect yourself as a follower, because the lead is hard to predict. If the out-of-time lead were a gentle invitation (thank you DavidJames!), rather than an aggressive “final demand,” our limbs would be safe from harm.
    What a brilliant description!!! Neanderthal with a big hammer - that picture will stay with me . Unfortunately, in my case, there was nothing "gentle" in his "invitation"...

    Nebula, (or anyone who has been a yankee, as in dance partner to a yanker, not a player on a NY baseball team), do you find the advice, “make your arm limp” useful? If so, what am I doing wrong? My brief attempts at “noodle-arm” garnered me a sore elbow, then a sore wrist (hyper-extended joints). I feel safer with a lot of constant springy resistance
    I find the limp arm counter-productive, as Ghost perfectly described:
    If you do it throughout a dance he can try to "fix the problem" by applying more and more force! Springy reistance is much safer.
    Besides, I don't like limp arm per se, so to make one makes me psychologically sick!!!

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    Re: Dancing out of beat

    It is said that you dance (1) with your partner (2) to the music (3) with the floor - in that order.

    Unless you are connected with your partner, it is a waste of time if your sense of musicality however great does not match hers or you move your feet beautifully. Musicality without connection = missing the essence of the dance i.m.o.

    So out of beat can be ok.

  14. #74
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    Re: Dancing out of beat

    Quote Originally Posted by Raul View Post
    It is said that you dance (1) with your partner (2) to the music (3) with the floor - in that order.
    It is said? By who?

    Blimey - is this forum getting vaguer or what?

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    Re: Dancing out of beat

    Quote Originally Posted by Lou View Post
    It is said? By who?
    Raul. Just up there, look!
    You even quoted it...

    Oh, and it's "whom"

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    Re: Dancing out of beat

    Quote Originally Posted by Raul View Post
    ...Unless you are connected with your partner, it is a waste of time if your sense of musicality however great does not match hers or you move your feet beautifully. Musicality without connection = missing the essence of the dance i.m.o.

    So out of beat can be ok.
    Itis possible to dance without any music - I have done it, and it felt wonderful. If it possible to dance to a tune in the leaders head, then it is possible to dance to a different beat, even to a different song. There are some tracks that just do not command my respect, and I am not knowingly listening to the music. I think I may be dancing to the beat automatically, I may not, but if the dance seems to be working for my partner, I do not particularly care.

  17. #77
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    Re: Dancing out of beat

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Oh, and it's "whom"
    So 'tis. The point remains, though. Let the lovely Raul back up his claims!

    I can't help dancing to the music, no matter if I'm dancing with a numpty with the musical interpretation skills of a dishmop and the rhythm of a centipede with 37 wooden legs .

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    Re: Dancing out of beat

    Quote Originally Posted by Lou View Post

    So 'tis. The point remains, though. Let the lovely Raul back up his claims!

    I can't help dancing to the music, no matter if I'm dancing with a numpty with the musical interpretation skills of a dishmop and the rhythm of a centipede with 37 wooden legs .
    Ooh-er. Didn't know I was that interesting !!

    (It's designer stubble now - so less like a dishmop.)

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    Re: Dancing out of beat

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitebeard View Post
    (It's designer stubble now - so less like a dishmop.)
    Oh, I do miss you! But it's a bit far to get to Gloucestershire from here.

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    Re: Dancing out of beat

    It is said by a couple of my Tango teachers. This is a dance where you do not step on every beat, there are lots of pauses and playing by one dancer or the other (or both) and you listen to the partner even more than the music.

    Sorry to bore you with tango again.

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