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Thread: Dancing out of beat

  1. #41
    Registered User nebula's Avatar
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    Re: Dancing out of beat

    No Chance.

    I can't stand dancing with anyone if they are not in time to the music. I force them to lead in time by taking over.

    This might be the wrong way, but it looks awful when you see some poor follower trying desperately hard to make some kind of sense of a rhythmless numpty.
    Have been in this situation last saturday. a fairly big chap (and he was rough!) - totally off beat. Started the dance, followed all the good advice - as in followed what he was leading - at 2,5 beats of his "leading" to 1 beat of the song.
    Then realised that the way he was pulling me into the spin - one foot was still coming forward when I was literally thrown off in the other direction could very well end up in my injury. The best tactics that seemed to work was resisting the pull.
    Risk assess - if it is just uncomfortable and probably doesn't look good - remember his face for the future but maybe bear with him. But I would certainly actively and rather forcefully resist if faced with similar situation now simply to avoid the accident that's waiting to happen.

  2. #42
    Registered User Ghost's Avatar
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    Re: Dancing out of beat

    Quote Originally Posted by nebula View Post
    Then realised that the way he was pulling me into the spin - one foot was still coming forward when I was literally thrown off in the other direction could very well end up in my injury. The best tactics that seemed to work was resisting the pull.
    Risk assess - if it is just uncomfortable and probably doesn't look good - remember his face for the future but maybe bear with him. But I would certainly actively and rather forcefully resist if faced with similar situation now simply to avoid the accident that's waiting to happen.
    Given previous comments about backleading entire dances etc

    Can I strongly recommend that "forcefully resisting" is not used throughout a dance It's safer for everyone, you, him, the people around you to just politely say "I'm sorry this isn't working" and end the dance.

    One-offs to cover "opps moments" sure. But no more than that.
    Last edited by Ghost; 20th-September-2007 at 04:01 PM.

  3. #43
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Dancing out of beat

    Quote Originally Posted by nebula View Post
    Have been in this situation last saturday.
    { snip story }
    But it wasn't the "dancing offbeat" that was the problem, was it? It was the "dangerous and rough pulling", yes?

    Different situation, I'd say.

  4. #44
    Registered User Ghost's Avatar
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    Re: Dancing out of beat

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    But it wasn't the "dancing offbeat" that was the problem, was it? It was the "dangerous and rough pulling", yes?

    Different situation, I'd say.
    Ironically Bruce Lee called it "broken rythym". By alternating leading on half beats and full beats as well as upbeats and downbeats, Nebula is effectively mid-way through one movement when he tries to take her into another - she's off-balance, unprepared, her momentum's all messed up etc. It's a really good technique in a fight - less so in a dance . It doesn't really need excessive force, it's like slipping on a banana skin.

  5. #45
    Registered User Alice's Avatar
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    Re: Dancing out of beat

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    The simian one has a gentle but clear lead (Good enough to be able to continue to lead me even when I was blinded by certain women with flash cameras )






  6. #46
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    Re: Dancing out of beat

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    I'll just have to let the forum ladies who know me jump to my defence there if any can be bothered and thinks I'm worthy enough. If no-one does then I'll just have to sit back and cry into my milk.

    Of course, the fact that it takes literally twice the amount of force to move her than anyone I've ever danced with is no way an indication that I may have a point......
    Hey NZ Monkey, you focused on one point of my post as though it was the only point. Don't take it to heart, I was only putting the suggestion out there....................................as I did with the follow dancing like a gorilla in the same post......................................just don't spill your milk

  7. #47
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    Re: Dancing out of beat

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    The follower I'm thinking of is higly-experienced - a competition-winner, in fact - but still literally a nightmare to dance with.
    Maybe she thinks the guys are a nightmare to dance with because of their lead.......................competition winner at what level?? If Advanced then perhaps the problem is with the social dance leads.

  8. #48
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    Re: Dancing out of beat

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidB View Post
    The first thing you should do is make sure it is not you that is on the wrong beat. No matter how good you think you are, or how bad you think your partner is, it is still a 50% chance that you are wrong.
    Totally agree with you on your post. In private lessons with my coach and partner, I'd swear I was doing it right and the problem was my partner......alas it was me on occasions and she(my dancepartner) sometimes would feel it was me, only to be told it was her by our coach. The best thing about this is the problem is solved and we can move on........................

  9. #49
    Registered User NZ Monkey's Avatar
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    Re: Dancing out of beat

    Quote Originally Posted by Thetruth View Post
    Hey NZ Monkey, you focused on one point of my post as though it was the only point. Don't take it to heart, I was only putting the suggestion out there....................................as I did with the follow dancing like a gorilla in the same post......................................just don't spill your milk
    Only focusing on one point is the natural consequence of you only making one point worth responding to.

    But since you seem to want more than that:
    As to leaders holding their partners hand at chest height.....do any other leads out there find that a fairly large number of women raise their hand up there on their own? If you don't use your thumb then in a normal grip the man can't do anything to prevent her raising her hand as high as she likes. Sometimes leading from there is just the path of least resistence.

    NZ Monkey signing off, after blaming followers for all the wrongs in the world in true Supervillian style. Mwahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

  10. #50
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    Re: Dancing out of beat

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    Only focusing on one point is the natural consequence of you only making one point worth responding to.

    But since you seem to want more than that:
    As to leaders holding their partners hand at chest height.....do any other leads out there find that a fairly large number of women raise their hand up there on their own? If you don't use your thumb then in a normal grip the man can't do anything to prevent her raising her hand as high as she likes. Sometimes leading from there is just the path of least resistence.

    NZ Monkey signing off, after blaming followers for all the wrongs in the world in true Supervillian style. Mwahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
    So touchy and sensitive in your post replies.........................shouldn't take it to heart so much, some people on this forum have advised you have a lovely lead. So lap it up.
    Why do the follows get blamed for the hands up high, they are not leading?? Even if they lift their hands, move it back to waist level. Its the leads job to lead, take charge, the last bastion of male dominance!

  11. #51
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Dancing out of beat

    Quote Originally Posted by Thetruth View Post
    Why do the follows get blamed for the hands up high, they are not leading?? Even if they lift their hands, move it back to waist level. Its the leads job to lead, take charge, the last bastion of male dominance!
    Sorry, but this sounds like incredibly dumb advice.

    It's not a wrestling match, for God's sake, it's a dance.

    Leads are invitational, not commanding. If a follower refuses your invitation, then she refuses; and she may have good reasons for doing so (e.g. injury), so a good lead should respect that decision and work within the constraints of what the follower accepts.

    In this case, If a follower clearly wants to raise her hand up high, then I'd work around it - for example, either by switching to moves that work in that position, or by leaving that hand alone and using other leads. I certainly wouldn't force her hand to a place she's not comfortable with.

  12. #52
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    Re: Dancing out of beat

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Leads are invitational, not commanding.
    I thought that depended on the lead and the leader.

  13. #53
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Dancing out of beat

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    I thought that depended on the lead and the leader.
    OK, "proper" leads are invitational, how's that?

  14. #54
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    Re: Dancing out of beat

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    This is like answering 'what do you do when someone is talking to you and you are totally bored?'
    <Conversation heard in background:>
    - Don’t do it!
    - But it isn’t quite like that!
    - So, you are planning to pit your vast experience of modern jive (less than a year, with a couple of lessons each month ) against his years of experience, dancing and teaching dance?!
    - I am not questioning his knowledge of dance! But you have to admit I do know quite a lot about beginner dancers who are rhythmically challenged.
    - Don’t do it! This is Amir we are talking about! Tsk! I can see the neg reps flooding in! Are you listening to me?!...
    - AAAAAAAAArgh!

    I doubt anyone actually dances to the beat of an imaginary drummer intentionally. An inability to hear the musical beat consistently is not self-obsession, laziness or contrariness. It is an involuntary affliction! So let me replace the "boring conversation" in the analogy with a stammer, and see what happens. I admit there is a problem with my analogy: most stammerers tend to be painfully aware that they stammer, while a frightening number of leaders with terpsichorean arrhythmia don't appear to notice. So we have to pretend this stammerer hasn’t a clue:

    There is no one answer since every situation is different.

    1) If it is a close friend it might be fine to say 'O.K., your stammer is driving me nuts, let me do the talking for a while...'
    2) If it is someone you will never meet again, and they are leaving in a couple of minutes, you might just wait it out.
    3) If it is someone you just met but will talk with for a long time you may try to help them along without them noticing.
    4) If it is someone you speak with often, and they always stammer, then one day you might probably say something like 'I love you and want to keep talking with you, but I hate your stammering. Can we just avoid it? I've had a difficult experience with Gareth Gates.'


    I haven’t heard anything to convince me that during a lesson I should do anything other than follow what is led to the best of my ability. I accept the point, that in a freestyle, there are a number of different situations, calling for different responses.
    But why hasn’t anyone suggested (gently) asking the lost leaders if they are having difficulty hearing the beat?
    Great! Just great! I hope you are happy, you little devil! Fat chance of getting into a Jango workshop now!!!

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    Re: Dancing out of beat

    Quote Originally Posted by JCB View Post
    I haven’t heard anything to convince me that during a lesson I should do anything other than follow what is led to the best of my ability.

    I accept the point, that in a freestyle, there are a number of different situations, calling for different responses.

    But why
    hasn’t anyone suggested (gently) asking the lost leaders if they are having difficulty hearing the beat?
    Last edited by David Bailey; 21st-September-2007 at 03:56 PM. Reason: fix quotes

  16. #56
    Registered User Twirly's Avatar
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    Re: Dancing out of beat

    Quote Originally Posted by JCB View Post
    But why hasn’t anyone suggested (gently) asking the lost leaders if they are having difficulty hearing the beat?
    Probably because that would be offering unsolicited advice/criticism, which after yanking, bouncing, backleading, etc is probably about the 6th or 7th deadly sin accoring to forum "wisdom".

    If you knew the person well, it might be possible to do it, but if it's just some random person who's asked you to dance, it could be seen as rather rude. And you'd have to be damned sure (as someone else said above) that it was them who was dancing off the beat, and not you.

    Besides, everyone has off days. I've danced with regular partners who are normally fine, and wondered what song they were actually listening to, as it certainly wasn't what I thought the DJ was playing But I've just got on with it and made the best of it. They've been back to their usual excellent selves the week after.

    There are also beginners who struggle with this, and who improve over time. Even if I dance with them every couple of weeks, it's still only 3 minutes, and I'll get plenty of other good dances of an evening (usually). It's often quite nice watching them improve - once they've mastered a few moves, maybe they'll actually begin to realise that there actually is a beat they're supposed to be dancing to! It's a lot to take in when you first start out...

    Anyway, why should we expect every dance to be perfect? (uh oh, could that be a whole other thread?)

  17. #57
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Dancing out of beat

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    Probably because that would be offering unsolicited advice/criticism, which after yanking, bouncing, backleading, etc is probably about the 6th or 7th deadly sin accoring to forum "wisdom".
    During a dance, yes.

    But I don't believe there's a forum opinion on what you can / should talk about afterwards however - there's nothing to stop you chatting about dancing to people when you're not dancing.

    There's a lovely dancer (follower) at Ceroc London, one of my favourite partners, who had real problems feeling the rhythm 10 years ago - she was great in all other ways, but not in the rhythm stakes. Now, she's got the rhythm, and she's pretty much perfect. So these things can improve given time.

  18. #58
    Registered User killingtime's Avatar
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    Re: Dancing out of beat

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    Probably because that would be offering unsolicited advice/criticism, which after yanking, bouncing, backleading, etc is probably about the 6th or 7th deadly sin accoring to forum "wisdom".
    But I totally agree with this. I'm not there to try to advise people on how I think they should dance at a freestyle, I'm just there to dance. If someone wants my advice I'd give it to them but otherwise I'll shut my pie hole.

    I can't offer much advice for followers with out-of-time leads. Ghost offered some good "interpret" advice and I agree with the general male ( ) answer of dance to the lead's time but I get why that might be annoying.

    Err...

  19. #59
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    Re: Dancing out of beat

    Quote Originally Posted by JCB View Post
    <Conversation heard in background:>
    Stop that, it's like reading a Stewart38 post

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    Re: Dancing out of beat

    I remember starting and learning the moves and having absolutely no idea what the correct beat was. I know for a fact that I was pretty bad at the beat thing for quite a while. Some people just have two left feet, or in this case, two left ears.

    Having said that, the worse offenders I come across are actually good dancers who absolutely refuse to dance to the correct beat of fast music. It's obviously for various reasons, and as a lead you put up with it, mangle your own dancing so some sort of semi-enjoyable loppop'ing is got out of it.

    This is why I smile when people say things like 'the best dancers are in the Blues room'. Sometimes they are, and sometimes they arn't. MJ is a wide canvas and it... all... depends...

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