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Thread: Musicality backwards

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    Musicality backwards

    Crystalising thoughts....all insights welcome

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    The more serious problem with Roadrunner is that what happens on each break is different, so if teaching it, you get asked "How would I know that the 1st break would be a short 'dum-dah' and the 2nd break would be 'dah-de-dah-dah-de-dah-de-dah-dah'?" and you can't really answer honestly anything other than "You'd have to know the track pretty well beforehand". This tends to derail the main point about being able to tell when breaks are coming (either by counting or 'feel' of the music).

    I saw exactly this happen when Nigel taught a musicality workshop using Roadrunner as an example. Nigel was teaching counting to tell where the break was coming, and you could see lots of people wondering what the point was if you needed to know the track to response appropriately on the break anyhow.
    I recently heard this piece of advice (admittedly about AT)
    "The follow shouldn't attempt to embellish the dance until she knows the piece of music well enough to at last hum it"

    I've also heard this piece of advice from Musicality workshops around the country
    "The best way to predict what's happening in the music is that Ceroc DJ's tend to play the same track for a few months"

    Also in a recentish discusssion where a group of us were trying to use random tracks to explain musicality to someone else; either we're not very good at it (entirely possible) or quite a few of the "rules" are really more "possibilities / suggestions".

    Which has got me thinking that perhaps we approach musicality backwards? Maybe the concept should be

    "Here's ways in which the music you're dancing to can be structured and here's things you can do within these structures. So when you're listening to a current piece of Ceroc in the car you've downloaded off iTunes, see what's actually there and consider what it allows you to do when you dance it in freestyle."

    I'm guessing in a similar way that people choreograph music? Only rather than choreoegraphing specific moves / sequences, you'd be choreographing opportunities.

    (Presumably the more accomplished you became at this, the better you'd get at predicting musicality anyway?)

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    Re: Musicality backwards

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    I recently heard this piece of advice (admittedly about AT)
    "The follow shouldn't attempt to embellish the dance until she knows the piece of music well enough to at last hum it"
    I can imagine why thats so much more important in AT but its certainly not true in MJ. A piece of music like RoadRunner is so obvious with its breaks it would be hard not to do something different on the break even if it was the first time you'd ever heard the song. It makes sense that where people are not used to the concept of musicality and the structure of music that they start with a track like this.

    "The best way to predict what's happening in the music is that Ceroc DJ's tend to play the same track for a few months"
    I would think a more generic "listen to as much music as possible, several times, with musicality in mind" would be better

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    Re: Musicality backwards

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    I can imagine why thats so much more important in AT but its certainly not true in MJ.
    just laying out my train of thought

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    I would think a more generic "listen to as much music as possible, several times, with musicality in mind" would be better
    This was where I was previously. However I (and others) have noticed a marked difference in the quality of dancing dependent upon whether the lead knows the piece or not (also strongly affected by how predictable the music is), hence my new train of thought.

    I agree though, it's still a good idea to do as well.

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    Re: Musicality backwards

    I'm going to try to answer this without turning it into a plug.

    Music adheres to rules. Some pieces (usually the genius ones) will break a rule or two, but still stay within rough structures.

    There are rules for classical: e.g. sonata form; jazz IIb, V, I (I think), rock/pop; 12 bar blues etc.

    When looking at musicality, I look at these rules, and see what it is I can expect, even from atrack I've never heard before: I then use this "template" (whilst listening for rule breakages) as a guide. I then finely tune what I am doing once I know the specifics of the tune I'm dancing to, so I hope to have it nailed by the 2nd chorus. sometimes...

    Once I know the genre of the piece, I can make informed decisions about what to expect.

    e.g. a 12 bar.

    I know, it will move to chord IV on the fifth bar, then return home at 7th bar. I know it will go to dominant (chord V) in bar 9, subdominant (chord IV) in 10, building to a climax somewhere between bars 9 and 12.

    This is all gobbledigook which means that in "Mustang Sally", there will always be a repeat of a vocal line (which is the change of key in bar 5) in each verse, then a "(One of these early mornin's) ooooooooooooooooooooo-ooo" STOP, which is the bar 9, bar 10 thing.

    Now, almost every other 12 bar in the world will be the same but different.

    My knowledge gives me the shape. Listening through the first verse gives me the details. I can then change my dance style accordingly at bar 5, and hit any break(s) when they come between bars 9 and 12.

    That said, I don't count bars: the audible clues tell me where I am.

    This is just one example, and probably not a well written one, but each music style can be broken down the same way (and into more detail.). Once you know the rules, U can dance (very easily) musically to a tune U've never heard before.

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    Re: Musicality backwards

    The more you actually "Listen" to music, the more you get an ear to "hear" what's coming up and the structure it follows - if you ever hear a piece of music and think this sound like... then you can usually pick up the changes (breaks) because of these similarities.

    If you know the track, then you can get all the subtalties and play with the lyrics and know where pauses, changes, etc come in with more precission. It helps, but I have been accused a few times of knowing a track on it's first hearing just because I can hum allong to it and predict the changes. :shrug: listen to more and you will hear more. {as the wize monk say }

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    Re: Musicality backwards

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    I recently heard this piece of advice (admittedly about AT)
    "The follow shouldn't attempt to embellish the dance until she knows the piece of music well enough to at last hum it"
    Sounds to me like another way of telling followers to embellish less, to be honest.

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    Re: Musicality backwards

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ View Post
    I'm going to try to answer this without turning it into a plug. <useful stuff>

    Once you know the rules, U can dance (very easily) musically to a tune U've never heard before.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    <other useful stuff>
    If you know the track, then you can get all the subtalties and play with the lyrics and know where pauses, changes, etc come in with more precission.
    What I've noticed is that "musicality" seems to focus on "how to dance to tunes you haven't heard before". But what about those you have heard before and are familiar with (which at Ceroc is hopefully about 90%)? Do you still use the musical cues as you go along; do you think 'ah such and such is coming up and I can do abc'; a mixture; something else entirely?

    I'm assuming that the more you understand musicality the more you can do with the subtlties in the music?

    Also importantly from my pespective, if you've got a piece where an aspect eg climax is *cough* rather subtle *cough* (some are easier than others ) you can bear that in mind, particularly dependent upon how much musicality your partner is doing and whether they're likely to "hear" it.

    Just as an aside I'm not advocating ditching the prediction aspect. It's more of "another string to your bow" approach

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    Re: Musicality backwards

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    What I've noticed is that introductions to "musicality" seems to focus on "how to dance to tunes you haven't heard before". But what about those you have heard before and are familiar with (which at Ceroc is hopefully about 90%)? Do you still use the musical cues as you go along; do you think 'ah such and such is coming up and I can do abc'; a mixture; something else entirely?

    I'm assuming that the more you understand musicality the more you can do with the subtlties in the music?

    Also importantly from my pespective, if you've got a piece where an aspect eg climax is *cough* rather subtle *cough* (some are easier than others ) you can bear that in mind, particularly dependent upon how much musicality your partner is doing and whether they're likely to "hear" it.

    Just as an aside I'm not advocating ditching the prediction aspect. It's more of "another string to your bow" approach
    The whole dancing to tunes U don't know is just a beginning. When I'm teaching musicality, I use well known tunes to provide examples, but the "dancing to tunes U've never heard before bit"?? Well, I offer that a) it should be easier, because U know the rules. b) By listening to a song, U can predict (to a degree) what will happen and when so U can dance more musically to any song, even one U've never heard before.

    Thereafter, a whole new world is open to you: lyrics, counter melodies, dancing to instruments, syncopation, etc...

    FWIW, not everyone who dances wants to go and hear "Ceroc" 90% knowing the tunes, etc...
    Last edited by CJ; 17th-September-2007 at 03:29 PM.

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    Re: Musicality backwards

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    What I've noticed is that "musicality" seems to focus on "how to dance to tunes you haven't heard before". But what about those you have heard before and are familiar with
    My views on this is that Musicality is indeed taught backward. Most people can already hear stuff in most tracks they dance to (whether they know them or not) but lack the ability / control to make anything of it.

    My motto is: "No musicality without control!"

    That means that before you can dance musically you need to develop:

    - control over yourself (frame, footwork, body movements, head movement and eye contact)
    - control over your partner (if leading via good connection and leading technique / if following via good connection and communication)
    - control over the moves / patterns you use so you can slow down, accelerate, extend, stop, modify quickly but without discomfort to your partner.
    - awareness of the shapes you and your partner are drawing.

    Once you've developed all the above, musicality comes very naturally, though of course everyone will disagree on how to interpret a break, an instrumental solo or a bass line...
    Once you have all the above, it also becomes more useful to be able to count bars and learn the theory of music, but until then, you're only adding to your frustration.
    Franck.

    There's an A.P.P. for that!

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    Re: Musicality backwards

    I'm not convinced I predict the music. I think I mostly dance to what I heard eight beats ago, or what I heard at this point last verse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    Do you still use the musical cues as you go along; do you think 'ah such and such is coming up and I can do abc'; a mixture; something else entirely?
    Ideally, if I've heard the song a lot before, I listen to the bits of the song I've not heard before. Random examples of things in songs I didn't hear the first dozen times:
    * The call and response in "He just wants to cha-cha (she just wants to twist)".
    * The lyrics of "Sweat (bullets from your soul)".
    * The Waltz in "Round Round (Sugababes)".

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    Re: Musicality backwards

    Quote Originally Posted by Franck View Post
    Most people can already hear stuff in most tracks they dance to...
    I kind of improvised teaching my musicality class at Southport. I used lots of music I normally use etc, but tried some new excersises, and since it was only an hour, talked a little less.

    I played a track, explained how the breaks repeated themselves at the same intervals in this track and had people attempt to hit the breaks. They found it pretty easy, but it was a well known track.

    Then a lady asked her partner (not meaning for me to hear) 'yeah but how would you do this to music you did not know.'

    Normally at this point I would go into a big long rant about how all the music we listen to is structured in a similar way etc etc. Instead I picked a not famous track with lots of quite easy to detect breaks, and played the first 10 seconds or so. Only one person in the room recognized the song, the rest had either not heard it or did not remember hearing it. So I let it play and told people to hit the breaks. Literally everyone in the room that I could see hit all of them.

    I then picked another unknown track, this time with harder to detect, yet evenly spaced breaks. I didn't count out the music or tell people when the break was about to happen. Only about three couples got the first one. About half the room got the second. Pretty much everyone got all the breaks after that.

    So I agree with Franck, most people can hear most of the stuff that they need to, even in new music. They just need to know that they can use what they hear, and develop the dance ability to actually excecute it.

    And I also agree with Ghost. The three most musical dance scenes I know (tango, wcs, and lindy) all dance to the same music for months and sometimes years. The pros know the music they dance to inside out. I don't think people should worry so much about being musical to music they haven't heard before. You'll only not know it once, and if its any good, it will be played many times more. Anyway, if you get musical to music you know really well, getting musical to new music will start to feel much easier.

    I suggest listening many times and dancing many times to the following music:
    (Someone please correct spelling/titles of these if wrong)

    wade in the water - Eva Cassidy
    sway - July London

    and when you can hit those breaks easy move on to:

    Perhaps - Doris Day
    Whatever Lola Wants - Sarah Vaughn


    In terms of the most useful dance vocabulary for musicality in modern jive, I would suggest learning to lead and follow:

    stops, drops and lollypops
    walking patterns at different speeds / blues style moves and sways
    assisted spins
    double time pretzel and comb variations

    None of the above are taught often at most weekly classes, so you need to seek them out at workshops/private lessons/weekenders.

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    Re: Musicality backwards

    Quote Originally Posted by Franck View Post
    Once you've developed all the above, musicality comes very naturally, though of course everyone will disagree on how to interpret a break, an instrumental solo or a bass line...
    I partly agree! I agree that awareness beyond ability can be frustrating. I can hear all this stuff in the music when I dance salsa, for example, but I am not good enough at the dance to do anything with it! It is frustrating, and I would not burden beginners with worrying about breaks etc.

    But on the other hand, you can see many professional dancers (I'm thinking mainly in tango, ballet and hop hop) with all the skills you mentioned, who are painfully unmusical. I mean, they don't even dance on the beat, let alone hit any breaks! So you don't want to leave teaching musicality too late, or some very bad habits may have developed (like ignoring the music, for instance!)

    Ideally I think musicality should be taught in tandem with the vocab that is most suited to it:
    dancing on beat should be important from day one
    hitting breaks from whenever people learn how to lead stops and drops
    more complex stuff soon after people start to learn double time/ half time movements, improv, sabotage etc.

    So rather than just 'musicality' workshops, there should be beginner, int and adv level musicality workshops/classes suited to the ability of the participants.
    Last edited by Amir; 18th-September-2007 at 12:26 AM. Reason: because what I wrote before wasn't as good as what I just wrote just now

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    Re: Musicality backwards

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    Ideally I think musicality should be taught in tandem with the vocab that is most suited to it:
    Absolutely!

    There are many degrees of musicality, I was merely commenting on the way musicality is taught, baffling dancers with musicology and complex structures when more often than not they are unable to lead a stop (or an acceleration) without wrenching their partner's arm out of its socket - This applies as much to leads as it does to followers who try to 'teach' breaks to their partners.

    It is possible to be musical, simply by swaying from side to side (as often demonstrated in the Blues rooms at week-enders and all teachers should take responsibility to introduce basic musical control and interpretation in their regular classes so that dancers get used to listening and interpreting within their ability range.

    Someone repped my previous post commenting that some of the best musical interpretation was happening at 4.00am in the Blues room, and whilst the comment may have been tongue in cheek I believe this happens for a couple of reasons:

    1/ We all dance better when close to exhaustion, or at least we think we do, just like we all dance better when we're drunk!

    2/ More seriously, when we reach a certain stage of exhaustion and relaxation, we try less hard to impress, we do simpler moves and genuinely rely on the music to sustain us through the dance. With less pressure, a simpler dance vocabulary and a more relaxed attitude, our abilities finally match our musical perceptions and we dance to the music!
    Franck.

    There's an A.P.P. for that!

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    Re: Musicality backwards

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ View Post
    U can predict (to a degree) what will happen and when so U can dance more musically to any song, even one U've never heard before.
    I never count and have no idea about the 'theory' of musicality but I can usually, simply 'feel' it, although, sometimes you can get caught out...

    I was dancing with a mate at Southport (who just happens to be a musician) to a track neither of us had heard before and suddenly, we both sharply and confidently hit a break the only trouble was, the music 'didn't'!

    oops

    We both looked at each other puzzled and fell about laughing.
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    Re: Musicality backwards

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    I was dancing with a mate at Southport (who just happens to be a musician) to a track neither of us had heard before and suddenly, we both sharply and confidently hit a break the only trouble was, the music 'didn't'!
    It also happens when someone plays a different mix of a well-known track - you expect breaks, and sometimes they're muted or just not there - so you hit a good break and... oops...

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    Re: Musicality backwards

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    It also happens when someone plays a different mix of a well-known track - you expect breaks, and sometimes they're muted or just not there - so you hit a good break and... oops...
    yes, but its like tripping in the street; you just keep going , shuffle your feet a bit and pretend you meant it.

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    Re: Musicality backwards

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    I kind of improvised teaching my musicality class at Southport.
    I used lots of music I normally use etc, but tried some new excersises, and since it was only an hour, talked a little less.
    couldn't tell - loved your workshop - although I only survived half of it - mind was willing but body was weak

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    In terms of the most useful dance vocabulary for musicality in modern jive, I would suggest learning to lead and follow:

    stops, drops and lollypops
    walking patterns at different speeds / blues style moves and sways
    assisted spins
    double time pretzel and comb variations
    whats a lollypop?

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    Re: Musicality backwards

    I'd be very interested in a workshop on "useful dance vocabulary for musicality in modern jive".

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    Re: Musicality backwards

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post

    I was dancing with a mate at Southport (who just happens to be a musician) to a track neither of us had heard before and suddenly, we both sharply and confidently hit a break the only trouble was, the music 'didn't'!

    oops
    I find this happens a lot - all the clues I associate with an imminent break are there and then it never actually arrives even though I manage to hit the (absent) break - feel even more foolish when it happens repeatedly during the same track

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    Re: Musicality backwards

    perhaps this would make you feel better, at 2:25



    but then watch it again from just the hips down.

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