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Thread: Blues Competition - HOW??

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    Commercial Operator StokeBloke's Avatar
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    Re: Blues Competition - HOW??

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    Also, take StokieBlokes comment not so long back .."Blues is just slow Ceroc" ...
    I assume by StokieBloke you mean me, so please allow me to clarify the statement you have attributed to me. I never said that, I also do not in any way agree with that statement! I know you won't pay the slightest bit of attention to this request Gus, but I'll waste some pixels on it anyway - please do not misquote me again

    By putting words in italics and quotation marks you cleverly tried to make it appear that you were quoting me from one of my previous posts; however as I have never said this, I can only assume that your recollection is poor or you were deliberatly trying to mislead the forum members - I hope it was the former rather than the latter
    Last edited by StokeBloke; 12th-September-2007 at 11:04 PM.

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    Registered User spindr's Avatar
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    Re: Blues Competition - HOW??

    Perhaps Gus was trying to remember the partial quote:
    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    If you can slow your modern jive moves right down you'll be OK in a blues room.
    SpinDr

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Blues Competition - HOW??

    Quote Originally Posted by spindr View Post
    Perhaps Gus was trying to remember the partial quote:
    Good link

    SB is not really saying "Blues is slow Ceroc", but I can see how it might be interpreted that way.

    Also, an interesting quote:
    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    Ceroc isn't actually a dance - Ceroc is a company that teaches and promotes modern jive. It's a small but important distinction.
    As I may have mentioned once or twice myself

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    Blues, as Martin said started waaaaaaaaay back.
    "Blues dancing" - whatever that means - in the MJ sense only "started" in the mid-90s with Nina and Nigel, didn't it?

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    However, like most forms of dancing it's fairly easy to move one form into another, take Amir's Jango (jive tango fusion) for example.
    Disagree - Jango's bl00dy difficult to dance, almost no-one does it in freestyles. Moving to another form is usually hard work, sometimes you have to forget everything you've learned.

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    Re: Blues Competition - HOW??

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    "Blues dancing" - whatever that means - in the MJ sense only "started" in the mid-90s with Nina and Nigel, didn't it?
    I think I'd use the word "introduced" rather than "started".

  5. #85
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Blues Competition - HOW??

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    I think I'd use the word "introduced" rather than "started".
    Yeah - actually I'd use the word "marketed" but I'm just old and cynical...

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    Re: Blues Competition - HOW??

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Yeah - actually I'd use the word "marketed" but I'm just old and cynical...
    I fail to see the point. If one wants to teach something new, surely one needs to market it? (otherwise no-one know about it)

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Blues Competition - HOW??

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264 View Post
    I fail to see the point. If one wants to teach something new, surely one needs to market it? (otherwise no-one know about it)
    Most dances are marketed, yes - but there's a question of how much is marketing and how much is actual new dance technique?

    Look at Ceroc for a good example of this.

    Another good example is salsa - arguably the entire dance form was a marketing exercise from the mid-1970s to around the mid-1990s, re-branding mambo and calling it something else. It's moved on since, however.

    But Nuevo Tango was not primarily a marketing exercise, it was a "break the dance down into components and build it up again" exercise. Yes, of course it's marketed, and sold around the world, but there was some solid academic work needed to define it.

    In the MJ world, Jango is of course marketed, but it's also reasonably easy to describe and define, at least in basics. And again, Amir's put some work into it, and continues to do so, to define, refine and structure it.

    But Blues? After 10+ years, no-one's been able to define it yet - you have to wonder, is there really any such thing?

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    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Blues Competition - HOW??

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    But Blues? After 10+ years, no-one's been able to define it yet - you have to wonder, is there really any such thing?
    Here's a simple definition of Blues in an MJ context...

    Blues is a MJ variant dance, structured the same as MJ, but with a greater emphasis on body connections and body leads. Normally danced to slower music, it should look and feel smooth and sexy.

    Probably needs some refinement... Thoughts?
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Re: Blues Competition - HOW??

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    But Blues? After 10+ years, no-one's been able to define it yet - you have to wonder, is there really any such thing?
    80+ years. There are definitions around. See, for example, the last post on this Yehoodi thread:
    Yehoodi.com

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    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Blues Competition - HOW??

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    80+ years. There are definitions around. See, for example, the last post on this Yehoodi thread:
    Yehoodi.com
    You could hardly say that (or any other) definition is universally accepted though, could you? I think I've seen more heated debates on Yehoodi about what is/isn't blues than pretty much any other subject. And I suspect none of the blues advocates at Yehoodi would have much time for the MJ variant.

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Blues Competition - HOW??

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    80+ years. There are definitions around. See, for example, the last post on this Yehoodi thread:
    Yehoodi.com
    I was talking about "MJ blues", which is - I assume - different from "Blues dancing" in general? If we go into the roots of blues as a wider dance / music form, we're in even deeper doodoo.

    EDIT: Blast, Mr F beat me to it...

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    Re: Blues Competition - HOW??

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    You could hardly say that (or any other) definition is universally accepted though, could you?
    No, I wouldn't say that. My point was merely that there are definitions of Blues dance that go beyond "X with cuddles" or "slow X", where X is the dance the definer knows. Not that there's anything wrong with either of those things.

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    Re: Blues Competition - HOW??

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    No, I wouldn't say that. My point was merely that there are definitions of Blues dance that go beyond "X with cuddles" or "slow X", where X is the dance the definer knows. Not that there's anything wrong with either of those things.
    There's no, repeat no, clear definition of blues dancing in an MJ context - which is what we're talking about.

    There are many many descriptions, most of them have been mooted on the various "what is blues" threads in the past - but to my knowledge, there's still no clear consensus definition.

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    Re: Blues Competition - HOW??

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    But Blues? After 10+ years, no-one's been able to define it yet - you have to wonder, is there really any such thing?
    What's Soul music? Well, either you know or you don't know, same with Blues dancing. Here's a few articles for the bofs:
    What is Blues Dancing? Eight Articles from the Web
    Now d'you get it? Of course not, you never will.
    My advice: When it comes to dance or music, start using your heart instead of your head.

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    Re: Blues Competition - HOW??

    *
    'Blues' dancing is simply dancing within your (and your partner's) personal space to slower music.
    It's called "blues" because it was developed while dancing to 'blues music', which is generally slower.
    You don't have to have 'blues' music to dance blues, but music from this genre tends to have an emotional charge that is good to work from.
    I don't think you can define it better than that without running into exceptions and long winded explinations { not that I would know anything about long winded explinations }

    I wrote an 'online workshop'- Blues and Moves* to try and introduce people to what blues dancing is and give some examples of how to make your MJ more "blues" themed.
    There is not really that much difference in terms of technique unless you go into 'micro-blues', but a competition is not going to see any of that.

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    Omnipresent Administrator Franck's Avatar
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    Re: Blues Competition - HOW??

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    I think I'd use the word "introduced" rather than "started".
    Yes, I would agree with that, it looks to me like Nigel (and maybe others at the time) discovered the slower, more connected version of Lindy as was danced by top US teachers visiting the UK for the then equivalents of our week-enders and loved the feel / look of it compared to what Ceroc was at the time. In the same way that MJ might have been inspired by French R&R...
    The style suited the music (slow swing) so he started teaching connection and what is now seen as Blues dancing.

    As well as being more connected, dancing slower and closer than MJ, Blues also introduces more elements of parallel movements, i.e. both dancers moving in the same direction at the same time (as opposed to stepping away from each other) with the 'blues first position' swaying from side to side and travelling in close hold.
    Franck.

    There's an A.P.P. for that!

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    Re: Blues Competition - HOW??

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Blues? After 10+ years, no-one's been able to define it yet - you have to wonder, is there really any such thing?
    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    blues dancing in an MJ context ... there's still no clear consensus definition.
    You seem to have altered your position, for the better. I agree. There is no single consensus definition of either Blues, Modern Jive, or MJ-based Blues. However, there are some clear and useful definitions of all three.

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    Re: Blues Competition - HOW??

    Quote Originally Posted by Franck View Post
    Yes, I would agree with that, it looks to me like Nigel (and maybe others at the time) discovered the slower, more connected version of Lindy as was danced by top US teachers visiting the UK for the then equivalents of our week-enders and loved the feel / look of it compared to what Ceroc was at the time.
    My understanding (as told me by Nina at the time - always assuming I remember this correctly) was that the main inspiration came from Nigel's Herrang visits, where he got to experience a Herrang blues night. Certainly that was close to the form that N&N were originally teaching - although I'm told that this has substantially changed during the subsequent ten or so years.

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    Re: Blues Competition - HOW??

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264 View Post
    My understanding (as told me by Nina at the time - always assuming I remember this correctly) was that the main inspiration came from Nigel's Herrang visits, where he got to experience a Herrang blues night.
    Yes, I couldn't remember the name when I posted. Lots of Lindy and Swing at the time... I expect entering the 'blues room' at such an event 15 years ago would have been mind blowing...
    A bit like the first time I saw Dirty Dancing's opening sequence... Inspirational stuff... Shame Nigel won't post the story himself, though I guess we could always ask Andy
    Franck.

    There's an A.P.P. for that!

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    Re: Blues Competition - HOW??

    Quote Originally Posted by Franck View Post
    I expect entering the 'blues room' at such an event 15 years ago would have been mind blowing...
    It was still pretty mind-blowing last year - certainly I rarely get to see dancing in the UK that measures up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Franck View Post
    A bit like the first time I saw Dirty Dancing's opening sequence... Inspirational stuff...
    Except that Herrang manages to remain inspirational every time I go. Which is why I keep going on about it - and is probably why it costs just a little bit more than a copy of DD...

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