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Thread: Blues Competition - HOW??

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    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Blues Competition - HOW??

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    Right ... so you have to dance BLUES .... but no one can actualy define what Blues is ... only what its not Is it only me who can see a slight problem of logic ...
    Have you ever seen a MJ competition that defines what Modern Jive is?

    Or even a WCS competition, likewise?
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Blues Competition - HOW??

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    Right ... so you have to dance BLUES .... but no one can actualy define what Blues is ... only what its not Is it only me who can see a slight problem of logic ...
    Absolutely.

    But that applies to all Blues competitions, everywhere, surely? Including last year's "Blues in the North" or whatever it was, and I didn't hear you complaining about it back then

    In fact, what were the rules for that comp?

    And what are the rules for the Beach boooooooo-whatsit comp?

    Because Ive had a look and, Ceroc aside, I can't find any attempt from a blues comp organiser to publicize these rules.

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    Re: Blues Competition - HOW??

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    Have you ever seen a MJ competition that defines what Modern Jive is?

    Or even a WCS competition, likewise?
    I think that MJ and WCS are far more well-defined as dances than Blues.

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    Re: Blues Competition - HOW??

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    And what are the rules for the Beach boooooooo-whatsit comp?
    As I recall, there were no rules, beyond the basic structure of the competition, and the mark scheme. Oh, and the music.

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    Re: Blues Competition - HOW??

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    As I recall, there were no rules, beyond the basic structure of the competition, and the mark scheme. Oh, and the music.
    Indeed, the organiser got us all together before the comp to sort out running order and explain the rules. She said there are no rules.

    Is this not an issue with all improvised dance forms?

    I would expect that Ballroom and Latin, for example, where specific steps MUST be completed and in a certain order, would be relatively easy to judge objectively.

    Whereas improvised dance forms such as MJ, WCS and Blues which have no required steps and are defined by what you can't do, must therefore be subjectively judged.

    I guess it's less than ideal, but at least a panel of judges (rather than 1 or 2) should go some way towards negating the effect of any judges' personal preferences.

    Short of defining exactly what steps must be done and how, I don't see any better way of doing it.

  6. #46
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Blues Competition - HOW??

    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    Indeed, the organiser got us all together before the comp to sort out running order and explain the rules. She said there are no rules.


    So, err, how on earth can the competitors be judged then? Pretty smiles? That's just weird...

    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    Is this not an issue with all improvised dance forms?
    I dunno, but other MJ and WCS dance comps seem to have rules (e.g. Britrock, Ceroc Champs etc.), so presumably they work.

    Rules are there to help define the criteria, and indeed to help the competitors understand what is required. If you don't have any rules, you have to rely totally on the experience and subjective judgement of the judges. A "no-rules" thing works OK for things like showcases, but for normal competitions I think it's just weird. In fact, I'm not sure if it can be called a proper competition if there are no rules.

    Hmmmm.... I started this out thinking that Ceroc were being well-cheeky by calling their comp the "first national Blues competition" - now I'm thinking they have a point.

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    Re: Blues Competition - HOW??

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post


    So, err, how on earth can the competitors be judged then? Pretty smiles? That's just weird...
    Exactly, maybe there was judging criteria, or maybe it was down to the judges personal preferences. As an aside, I don't mean to belittle their achievement, but the 2nd place couple I thought just did lots of flashy lifts, drops and aerials with little consideration for the music.

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    I dunno, but other MJ and WCS dance comps seem to have rules (e.g. Britrock, Ceroc Champs etc.), so presumably they work.

    Rules are there to help define the criteria, and indeed to help the competitors understand what is required. If you don't have any rules, you have to rely totally on the experience and subjective judgement of the judges. A "no-rules" thing works OK for things like showcases, but for normal competitions I think it's just weird. In fact, I'm not sure if it can be called a proper competition if there are no rules.

    Hmmmm.... I started this out thinking that Ceroc were being well-cheeky by calling their comp the "first national Blues competition" - now I'm thinking they have a point.
    But the majority of the rules are what you can't do, as opposed to what you must do, which leaves what you choose to do open to subjective judging.
    I'm just saying that I can't see a better way unless you take the improvisation out of the dance and demand certain steps/moves.

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    Re: Blues Competition - HOW??

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Rules are there to help define the criteria, and indeed to help the competitors understand what is required.
    To me, that's more to do with the marking scheme, which we were told, rather than rules. In the case of Beach Boogie, points were awarded (or not, in our case) for Technique, Variety, Musicality, and Presentation. Note that "blues aesthetic", "authenticity", or similar, wasn't one of the criteria.

    There was also an hour sit-down workshop on "competition blues" by Nigel+Nina that day, which I think helped competitors understand what was required, far more than rules would have.

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    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Blues Competition - HOW??

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    I think that MJ and WCS are far more well-defined as dances than Blues.
    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    I dunno, but other MJ and WCS dance comps seem to have rules (e.g. Britrock, Ceroc Champs etc.), so presumably they work.
    This Ceroc Blues competition seems to have very similar rules to the Ceroc MJ competitions I have seen.

    For the Ceroc champs...
    The dance must be recognisable as a modern jive like Ceroc. (Lindy Hop, Jitterbug, West Coast Swing, East Coast Swing, 50s style Rock 'n' Roll, Ballroom Jive etc are not modern jives and therefore are not permitted.)
    For the Ceroc Blues...
    Whilst it will be acceptable for people to interpret the music to adopt fusion styles of Blues (Swing Blues, Jive Blues, West Coast Blues) dancing an outright non blues style will result in disqualification. This is not a West Coast Swing or Modern Jive competition
    Can you show us what there is in the Ceroc Champs rules that is missing from the Ceroc Blues rules?

    Neither has a definition of what the dance is.
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Re: Blues Competition - HOW??

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    To me, that's more to do with the marking scheme, which we were told, rather than rules. In the case of Beach Boogie, points were awarded (or not, in our case) for Technique, Variety, Musicality, and Presentation.
    Ah, OK then.

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    There was also an hour sit-down workshop on "competition blues" by Nigel+Nina that day, which I think helped competitors understand what was required, far more than rules would have.
    Yeah, but that's a bit unfair on people who can't make it to the workshop isn't it?

    If you need a 1-hour workshop to describe what you need to do, I suspect there's something wrong somewhere...

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    Re: Blues Competition - HOW??

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Yeah, but that's a bit unfair on people who can't make it to the workshop isn't it?
    It is! I had important business at the Wight Mouse Inn and didn't make it to the workshop.

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    Re: Blues Competition - HOW??

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    Can you show us what there is in the Ceroc Champs rules that is missing from the Ceroc Blues rules?
    Ceroc-the-organisation famously doesn't define their style of dance - we've had many a discussion about that.

    But yeah, MJ is generally very poorly-defined.

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    Re: Blues Competition - HOW??

    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    It is! I had important business at the Wight Mouse Inn and didn't make it to the workshop.
    Just think, if only you hadn't missed it...

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    Re: Blues Competition - HOW??

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Just think, if only you hadn't missed it...
    It was fixed I tell you!
    Bribery, homophobia, nepotism, favouritism. It's so unfair.

    It had nothing to do with us being crap...

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    Re: Blues Competition - HOW??

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Yeah, but that's a bit unfair on people who can't make it to the workshop isn't it?
    Life isn't fair.

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    If you need a 1-hour workshop to describe what you need to do, I suspect there's something wrong somewhere...
    How come? There's a lot that goes into being good at competition/performance dance.

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    Re: Blues Competition - HOW??

    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    It had nothing to do with us being crap...
    No dear...you were robbed.

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    Re: Blues Competition - HOW??

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post


    So, err, how on earth can the competitors be judged then? Pretty smiles? That's just weird...
    I'd have assumed, it being a Blues competition, they'd set up a porch, and have an old guy sitting in his rocking chair with a steel guitar in his lap. Naturally, they would start in the morning, waking the old guy up.

    Each couple would go past in a rouda, and he'd say "Dat ain't the Blues" (at which point the couple would sit down), or "Yup, now you got the Blues!" as appropriate. Until there was only one couple left.

    (apols, I'll always find the name of this dance style faintly ridiculous...)

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    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
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    Re: Blues Competition - HOW??

    I think that's it's obvious that when 2 people are dancing together to a slow track what 'blues' dancing is;

    It, at it's most basic, shows a total connection between 2 people; Eye contact, body contact and moves that combine some element of seduction - leans and dips or simply a stroke of the face or the arm...

    The next is it's based on an improvisational quality that means the music leads and the dancers follow. So listening for stops or changes in the music, a quality of light and shade even to the point of picking up on certain instruments in the track..

    Then there is the more subtle aspect of the 'chase' and the seduction - coyness, assertiveness and sexuality and even the expression on the people's faces.

    It maybe difficult to define exactly but I think we all know when we've been 'bluesed'.

    We also know what it's not (as several people have mentioned.) It's not bouncing around, it's not one big showcase move after another, it's not choreographed routines, it's not the gratutitous use of aerials, it's not spare arms and big gestures of showmanship, it's not doing one move after another seperate from your partner... It's not slow Ceroc because in MJ you're normally stepping back from your partner and in Blues you spend more of your time stepping in towards them.

    Having said that of course, there is a paradox in that people will be 'performing' - so compeititors should look to face the front on dips etc because the line and look of the move is easier to see and judge from the front. There is also a fine line between making the move 'big' with spare arms and false smiles and making moves more visible by accentuating the content a little.

    And costumes etc. well people don't have to dress up but you obviously create more of an impact of you dress the same, or compliment each other rather than just turning up in a pair of jeans and a t shirt. It also shows that your serious about the competition. The reality with costumes and dress is that it can't disadvantage you to spend some time thinking about what you're wearing and it does help first impressions and the overall presentation of your dance.

    So to sum up: the judges will be looking for connection and that means to each other and the music, which encompasses all of the elements listed above; we will be looking for musicality and improvisation from both partners. Also in the case of dip and drops, we will be looking at the technicality of those moves and also if they appropriately fit the music and ditto for any 'aerials' and lifts. Finally, we will be looking at presentation and that means how you look, how you move, how you interact and how you present all of those elements to the judges and the audience..

    It's not easy and probably Blues dancing is the most difficult dance to adapt to a performance and competition concept. However, all of the judges have a wealth of experience in teaching, performance and competitions and are well placed to judge based on the criteria that have been listed.

    Like in all competitions, practice is the key element and you can't really expect to just pick up a partner on the day and win outright (it IS possible but it's fairly unusual..) Alternatively, just do it for fun in the knowledge that it will help to improve your dancing and technique - stepping out of your comfort zone occasionally is good for you!

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    Re: Blues Competition - HOW??

    So in simple terms, Blues is actually Foreplay? (To music)

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    Re: Blues Competition - HOW??

    Quote Originally Posted by Cruella View Post
    So in simple terms, Blues is actually Foreplay?
    That's one interpretation. Myself, I prefer it as I first learned it - something quite different, and generally nothing to do with chase or seduction or sexuality or any such, but I think it's taken on a lot of these things under the MJ blues umbrella.

    I go with a school of thought that sees it as a very personal, intense, connected, but minimal and non-showy dance - a meeting of minds, not of bodies. That approach is, however, not so good for competition.

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