WCS- more "Connection" than MJ?

[DavidY]

I've noticed a few WCS folk comment (both on here and in the Real World) that you need more "connection" than in MJ.

As a WCS-near-newbie I'm interested to find out a bit more about this- what's different about WCS that means you need more "connection" and what form should it take?

Personally I have a shoulder that doesn't take too kindly to being subjected to too much force - so I want to apply as little tension or compression as I can get away with, and also protect myself from possible injuries from partners.

[Lory]

Personally I have a shoulder that doesn't take too kindly to being subjected to too much force - so I want to apply as little tension or compression as I can get away with, and also protect myself from possible injuries from partners.

IMO, because your more connected, the need for any 'force' is much less!

A good WCS follow, should be 'tuned in' and react to the most subtle of leads.

[Dreadful Scathe]

but the same can be said of a good MJ follower too - thus the exercises such as "leading without touching" leading to "leading with one finger" etc..

[johnnyman]

As an Intermediate WCS dancer, one of the most important things I have learned is about the one-beat lead i.e. keep hold of the lady's hand on beat 1 and then let it go, whereby the lady will travel nonetheless.

Stretch and compression are two other things that are different about the lead in WCS and being able to move out of the way on passing moves.

best
johnnyman

[David Bailey]

As an Intermediate WCS dancer, one of the most important things I have learned is about the one-beat lead i.e. keep hold of the lady's hand on beat 1 and then let it go, whereby the lady will travel nonetheless.

Stretch and compression are two other things that are different about the lead in WCS and being able to move out of the way on passing moves.

That seems to imply that connection isn't more important in WCS than in MJ?

[Dreadful Scathe]

That seems to imply that connection isn't more important in WCS than in MJ?

well, it isnt. You can have a bad connection and dance badly in WCS too

[Caro]

I've noticed a few WCS folk comment (both on here and in the Real World) that you need more "connection" than in MJ.

As a WCS-near-newbie I'm interested to find out a bit more about this- what's different about WCS that means you need more "connection" and what form should it take?

Personally I have a shoulder that doesn't take too kindly to being subjected to too much force - so I want to apply as little tension or compression as I can get away with, and also protect myself from possible injuries from partners.

Ok, here are some reflections based on my current understanding of the topic...

The connection in WCS is different from MJ, in terms of 'force' (I don't like that word, I'd prefer tension), sometimes is it more, sometimes it is less.

First of all, the mean you use to convey the connection, most of the time this is the hand hold coupling, is different: in MJ most people seem to use their last 2 phalanges at most, whereas in WCS you are taught to use the whole length of the fingers (ask me at SP if you don't know what I'm talking about here), it's like being on a small path and then suddenly a motorway just opens up in front of you and there is so much more scope to communicate.

So that allows you to use in fact, less strength or force to communicate with your partner. (Hence Lory's comment). (yet the connection is more intense).

Also, there is very little connection remaining in the middle of the patterns (change of direction excluded). The reason is that once the direction is given, it is the follow's job to go to the end of the slot -the handhold is just there to maintain contact. That's an aspect with which we as MJ-ers struggle a lot, we almost always have too much residual connection in the middle of patterns. So in that part, there is way less tension involved.


Now for the bit where you probably perceive that more strength or force is required: resistance when anchoring. Yes usually at the end of an anchor there should be more resistance involved than in MJ. Now that resistance anchors not in your shoulder, but in your lats (the muscle on the bottom part and side of the shoulder blade). So if done properly, it shouldn't hurt the joint at all. Now when it comes to moving the follower forward: that shouldn't require any force at all. But it often does, because it's difficult for follows to anchor, create some stretch on 'and a' before the '1', and move forward without being heavy. It's also hard for MJ follows to commit their body completely to go to the end of the slot by '1'.
So while you'll find that the pros or Cat are as light as a dream, you're unlikely to find that with less experienced follows. It's all part of learning I'm afraid...

hope it helps!

[Geordieed]

Whatever the degree of experience in MJ you can begin to learn and become comfortable with WCS with what you know. As a lead or follow progresses their skills and knowledge of WCS connection can play a bigger part within the dance and some of the more expansive elements to the dance open up to you. Connection does not imply force. Better techinque will help to protect you from harm by the way.

Good connection is like being in love. You know it if you have it or not. You can try and fake it but it is not the same. And when you experience it for real then there is no other feeling like it.

I am continually learning about connection and trying to gain a deeper understanding of it. Connection has many dimensions. I can't see a time when this will ever stop. I remember one of my first ever dances with a top WCS dancer. She had such amazing connection I could actually feel the contact of her heels on the floor, even though she was grounded, with just the lightest of touch from our hand hold.

After spending alot of time and money on connection I would have to say that at a higher level of dance there is alot more connection in WCS than MJ and I dance both.

[DavidY]

First of all, the mean you use to convey the connection, most of the time this is the hand hold coupling, is different: in MJ most people seem to use their last 2 phalanges at most, whereas in WCS you are taught to use the whole length of the fingers (ask me at SP if you don't know what I'm talking about here), it's like being on a small path and then suddenly a motorway just opens up in front of you and there is so much more scope to communicate.

After spending alot of time and money on connection I would have to say that at a higher level of dance there is alot more connection in WCS than MJ and I dance both.

Thanks for your answers, but I'm still puzzled by this question:

what's different about WCS that means you need more "connection"?

Why couldn't you apply the WCS handhold to MJ, for example? If it's so much better, do any MJ teachers teach it? And why is it better to have a "more-fingers" hand hold (more points of contact I guess, but possibly more opportunity for them to conflict with each other)?

Thanks again...

[robd]

I've noticed a few WCS folk comment (both on here and in the Real World) that you need more "connection" than in MJ.

I'm not qualified to talk about the technical side of connection as I simply don't know enough about it but I can talk about what seems to work for me.
The handhold in particular differs for me. Many people view as little hand/finger to hand/finger contact as possible as the holy grail when they are MJ dancing. My style certainly used to be that of leading with one finger very often. In WCS I like a much 'fuller' contact with my follower's hand - this enables me to feel where she is in terms of anchoring particularly much better. However there's no reason why such a connection (in a purely physical sense) cannot work as well for MJ. In a private with Amir he suggested I stop leading with one finger and offer all of them for the follower simply because 'it feels nicer'. He then lead me through a few jango patterns, first with the one finger hold and subsequently with a fuller hold and I have to say I agree with his assessment.

Personally I have a shoulder that doesn't take too kindly to being subjected to too much force - so I want to apply as little tension or compression as I can get away with, and also protect myself from possible injuries from partners.

Tension/Compression need not be associated with excessive force. In a private with Paul W we spent quite a few minutes just dancing push breaks working on me building connection from 3 (not 4) and emphasised that it's a smooth and gradual process. I accept that beginner followers whom you are likely to mostly be dancing with will not have the following skills of Paul but the principle is the same.

One thing I see most frequently with new WCS followers is them selling themselves short on the push break and not allowing the compression to build. The whole purpose of a standard push break is to get that feel - in it's standard form it's not a flash move it's all about the feeling and when done right and with good connection it reminds me of why I enjoy dancing WCS so much.

[robd]

Thanks for your answers, but I'm still puzzled by this question:Why couldn't you apply the WCS handhold to MJ, for example? If it's so much better, do any MJ teachers teach it? And why is it better to have a "more-fingers" hand hold (more points of contact I guess, but possibly more opportunity for them to conflict with each other)?

Thanks again...

No reason why you couldn't apply a WCS handhold to MJ.

I think sometimes MJ beginners are told fewer fingers are better to assist with turning their partner - easier for a follower to turn under 1 or 2 of the leader's fingers than 4 of them - and then take this onward as they progress in the dance. If it works for them in MJ then why would they see a need to change it. Using fewer fingers also, I would guess, reduces the risk of excessive gripping from nervous beginners.

[Geordieed]

In a private with Paul W we spent quite a few minutes just dancing push breaks working on me building connection from 3 (not 4) and emphasised that it's a smooth and gradual process. I accept that beginner followers whom you are likely to mostly be dancing with will not have the following skills of Paul but the principle is the same.

Here's a question for you Rob just to illustrate what the answer implies. Do you think you would have arrived at this conclusion if you had not taken the private lesson from Paul.

I don't ask it as a promotional exercise for Paul. The reason that I ask it is because talking about compression especially on the forum can't adequately address the topic. Plus there is no substition for learning directly from classes and beyond. I generalise about the scenario but dancing without really learning what is occuring in the dance or deciding to learn without proper instruction doesn't do the dance justice and this is what we find from time to time.

It is great to see dancers with alot of ability still prepared to learn another dance really well and seek out others for that knowledge...

[robd]

Here's a question for you Rob just to illustrate what the answer implies. Do you think you would have arrived at this conclusion if you had not taken the private lesson from Paul.

Hmm, some of it. Possibly.

For sure, I'd always known that the building of compression and tension/leverage (are they the same?) should be gradual but starting to engage on 3 was new for me and, yes, I wholeheartedly agree with the main point you're making which is that compression is one of those things where a demonstration/feeling it is worth a thousand forum posts. Nonetheless I don't believe people should stop asking about it, just that they should understand that a written description is no match for teaching.

I generalise about the scenario but dancing without really learning what is occuring in the dance or deciding to learn without proper instruction doesn't do the dance justice and this is what we find from time to time.

I agree. Yes, there are people for whom classes are too distant/expensive and then you've got to debate whether learning imperfectly is better than not learning at all. Hopefully some standardisation of teaching in terms of content will happen but given the (relatively) low number of advanced WCS dancers in the country there's always going to be a struggle to provide a decent standard of teaching for everywhere that wants it. I think also newer dancers shouldn't interpret what you are saying as 'don't dance WCS until you've done X lessons with X' - it's about getting the basic knowledge from the right people. For this reason, I wish Paul or Cat (or the existing forumite WCS teachers) would chip in on some of these debates but then I guess they'd probably rather spend time dancing than talking about it

BTW I don't want people to think I have money to burn on private lessons given my post earlier. I've only had 2 which were those that I mentioned plus I was part of a group private with Jordan/Tatiana. I have to say the 1:1 sessions were much more useful to me than the group one.

[Lory]

Many people view as little hand/finger to hand/finger contact as possible as the holy grail when they are MJ dancing.

To the other extreme...

In accelerated moves, where the follow moves quickly and is relying on the lead to counter balance her momentum in order for her to stop. WCS teacher Lee, always said, aim to catch her on the wrist, that way you've got a second chance if you miss!

[MartinHarper]

Good connection is like being in love.

A simple and well-understood process hijacked by hippies and poets?

[DavidY]

there are people for whom classes are too distant/expensive and then you've got to debate whether learning imperfectly is better than not learning at all.

I think that's where I'm at - I wouldn't even know where to look to find a good private lesson and I have other commitments which often get in the way of doing workshops. Meanwhile I'm still going to classes and (potentially) reinforcing lots of bad habits that will would get harder and harder to shake off the more often I repeat them.

The reason that I ask it is because talking about compression especially on the forum can't adequately address the topic. Plus there is no substition for learning directly from classes and beyond.

I can see that learning how to do compression/ tension properly is something that's best done in a class.

I'm still interested in why WCS is different though. For instance these seem to be part of the story...

In WCS I like a much 'fuller' contact with my follower's hand - this enables me to feel where she is in terms of anchoring particularly much better.

In accelerated moves, where the follow moves quickly and is relying on the lead to counter balance her momentum in order for her to stop. WCS teacher Lee, always said, aim to catch her on the wrist, that way you've got a second chance if you miss!

From which I'm picking up that:

• You need to know when/how (?) your partner is anchoring and more hand contact gives you more info on this
• WCS has more accelerated moves =people move faster than MJ

Sound about right?

[Mr Cool]

:Personally I always need to have the right conectoin.
It matters not what style of dance I am dancing.
Without Positive conection i cannot lead the lady with the control I Desire.
This applies the same in WCS, MJ. Lindy. Tango. Blues, Balboa .Ballroom.Polka or Latin. just because its modern jive doesn't mean It requires less comitment.

[Caro]

:Personally I always need to have the right conectoin.
It matters not what style of dance I am dancing.
Without Positive conection i cannot lead the lady with the control I Desire.
This applies the same in WCS, MJ. Lindy. Tango. Blues, Balboa .Ballroom.Polka or Latin. just because its modern jive doesn't mean It requires less comitment.

And another helpful post brought to you by Mr Cool

Basically, just 'feel it', hey ? Dancing's so coooool

[rubyred]

And another helpful post brought to you by Mr Cool

Basically, just 'feel it', hey ? Dancing's so coooool

Weeeeeellllll I think there is something to be said for feeling it, when I have danced with people who don't give me eye contact, give me the impression that their passion for the music is just between them and the fairies at the bottom of the garden, think they are Gods gift to whoever then I feel their intepretation of the music gets lost because of their ignorance around not wanting to share good stuff with me, their partner for three mins of the record, means to me that the musicality, passion and connection evapourates.

[Thetruth]

I've noticed a few WCS folk comment (both on here and in the Real World) that you need more "connection" than in MJ.

As a WCS-near-newbie I'm interested to find out a bit more about this- what's different about WCS that means you need more "connection" and what form should it take?

Personally I have a shoulder that doesn't take too kindly to being subjected to too much force - so I want to apply as little tension or compression as I can get away with, and also protect myself from possible injuries from partners.

Connection is just as important in MJ as it is in WCS. It is not a matter of more or less than. MJ can utilise leads from other dance styles.....................the only difference is that WCS has been around longer than MJ and the lead in MJ is still evolving.