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Thread: Great dancers...are they a source of inspiration or depression?

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    Great dancers...are they a source of inspiration or depression?

    One of the problems with YouTube (and I suppose weekenders) is that it exposes you to dancers who are leagues ahead of you in terms of development and talent...you go along quite happily in your weekly classes and freestyles, but when you see people who can really dance brilliantly it can make your own dancing feel threadbare and inadequate. When I started dancing I used to not really notice amazing dancers apart from in the sense of wow that looks great and then go back to getting to grips with a pretzel or whatever.

    I think Jamie in another thread said that every man thinks that he knows everything about something at some point, and it's quite sobering when you realise that although you thought you were coming along nicely, you still have vast areas of ignorance and/or areas which need refining.

    I suppose a subtext to this thread could be do you compare yourself with other dancers? which I guess is a natural human reaction, but is this process of comparison a potential source of depression as much as inspiration? It sometimes feels, as an intermediate dancer, as though you're in a leaky boat, having to bail water as fast as you can just to stay afloat.

    Just my two penn'oth.

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    Re: Great dancers...are they a source of inspiration or depression?

    For me it depends on my mood

    if I'm feeling good about my dancing they are an inspiration - want to learn that move, master that technique,

    if I'm feeling frustrated or disheartened about my dancing then it's a case of oh my god why do I even bother and where is a rock to crawl under....

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    Re: Great dancers...are they a source of inspiration or depression?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yliander View Post
    For me it depends on my mood

    if I'm feeling good about my dancing they are an inspiration - want to learn that move, master that technique,

    if I'm feeling frustrated or disheartened about my dancing then it's a case of oh my god why do I even bother and where is a rock to crawl under....
    I'm much the same - on the one hand, I have learned/am learning some nice moves/variations from YouTube, and it's a fantastic way to accelerate your development.

    But when you're feeling a bit tired or off, or have had some bad dances, it makes you wonder if you can dance at all.

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    Re: Great dancers...are they a source of inspiration or depression?

    The thing to remember about MJ is that it is a fun dance. So long as you're having fun, it doesn't matter if other people are better dancers than you. In fact, if you're having more fun than those "better dancers" I'd say that you've captured the spirit of MJ - maybe that makes you better, who knows?

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    Re: Great dancers...are they a source of inspiration or depression?

    Quote Originally Posted by Terpsichorea View Post
    I'm much the same - on the one hand, I have learned/am learning some nice moves/variations from YouTube, and it's a fantastic way to accelerate your development.

    But when you're feeling a bit tired or off, or have had some bad dances, it makes you wonder if you can dance at all.

    Has the be an inspiration for sure, i cannot believe anyone who has witnessed anything by Amir and Cat, Paul and Cat, Jordan & Tat etc etc would have failed to be inspired by watching them, dancing is truly inspirational IMHO, when i see awesome performances it only makes me want to improve and get better, can`t wait for southport....

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    Re: Great dancers...are they a source of inspiration or depression?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    The thing to remember about MJ is that it is a fun dance. So long as you're having fun, it doesn't matter if other people are better dancers than you. In fact, if you're having more fun than those "better dancers" I'd say that you've captured the spirit of MJ - maybe that makes you better, who knows?
    On the one hand I can see that's true - just as in surfing, the instructors always used to say the best surfer is the one having the most fun. But beginners never looked heartened by this when they were still unable to stand up on the board after a week of trying!

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    Re: Great dancers...are they a source of inspiration or depression?

    Quote Originally Posted by FoxyFunkster View Post
    Has the be an inspiration for sure, i cannot believe anyone who has witnessed anything by Amir and Cat, Paul and Cat, Jordan & Tat etc etc would have failed to be inspired by watching them, dancing is truly inspirational IMHO, when i see awesome performances it only makes me want to improve and get better, can`t wait for southport....
    Oh yeah, don't get me wrong, watching guys like that is what it's all about. It's just humbling (and therefore a little disconcerting) to realise what a big gulf exists between you and them, and how the journey of development can sometimes seem tiring, if you have a tendency to push yourself a lot. The more you see and learn, the more you realise how much you have to see and learn. It's like the verses from Pope's Essay On Criticism:

    A little Learning is a dang'rous Thing;
    Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian Spring:
    There shallow Draughts intoxicate the Brain,
    And drinking largely sobers us again.
    Fir'd at first Sight with what the Muse imparts,
    In fearless Youth we tempt the Heights of Arts,
    While from the bounded Level of our Mind,
    Short Views we take, nor see the lengths behind,
    But more advanc'd, behold with strange Surprize
    New, distant Scenes of endless Science rise!
    So pleas'd at first, the towring Alps we try,
    Mount o'er the Vales, and seem to tread the Sky;
    Th' Eternal Snows appear already past,
    And the first Clouds and Mountains seem the last:
    But those attain'd, we tremble to survey
    The growing Labours of the lengthen'd Way,
    Th' increasing Prospect tires our wandering Eyes,
    Hills peep o'er Hills, and Alps on Alps arise!

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    Re: Great dancers...are they a source of inspiration or depression?

    Only one person at a time can ever be the best at anything.

    All we can do is be the best we can be and aim to take 'The Bests' position.

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    Re: Great dancers...are they a source of inspiration or depression?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post
    Only one person at a time can ever be the best at anything.

    All we can do is be the best we can be and aim to take 'The Bests' position.
    I've emphasised the part of your post I agree with wholeheartedly, and totally reject the rest of it. This might be true for those who want to compete such as yourself, but for the rest of us, we only want to enjoy our dancing and to try to do what you are suggesting would only cause unhappiness.

    I do love to watch really good dancers, in whatever type of dance - have done since I was a small child. I know I'm never going to be able to do a faction of what they can do. Doesn't destroy my pleasure at all.

    And there are some dancers I watch at freestyle, whose dancing I can admire, but have no wish to emulate at all - because they just aren't dancing my "style" (whatever that is). There are others whom I watch to learn from.

    I don't feel depressed or anxious at all when watching better dancers - at least not until one of the leads asks me to dance, and then I quake in my shoes (and my dancing usually goes to pot too!)

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    Re: Great dancers...are they a source of inspiration or depression?

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post

    I don't feel depressed or anxious at all when watching better dancers - at least not until one of the leads asks me to dance, and then I quake in my shoes (and my dancing usually goes to pot too!)
    Fair point. Not everyone wants to be the best. Sometimes I overlook that.


    Im glad that it's not only me that happens to. I thought I was going to be sick when dancing with Tatiana. It was commented after how white I was.

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    Re: Great dancers...are they a source of inspiration or depression?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    The thing to remember about MJ is that it is a fun dance.
    it is? .. ahem.. sorry wrong inflection there.. it is ! Most of the time I agree.. some of the time I'd argue that statement. When i was in the "zone" I loved dancing.. still think about dancing a lot.. however after a long absence due to medical problems I'm thinking about the time (hopefully soon) when I get back dancing with a mixture of both Joy and fear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post
    All we can do is be the best we can be
    This is true in all aspects of life. Do your best, try to be as good as you can and no-one can fault you for it. I worked hard to be where I am now .. a geeky computer programmer.. I'll be the first to admit that I didn't apply myself quite the same to my dancing. And when I say "I'm a noob and I'll never learn this..." it's my own fault. I'll never be as good as some that's fine.. but as long as I put the effort in and try my best, then I can't really complain.

    I've no intention of every becoming "the best" I don't want to be top dog. I'm not competitive by nature.

    I like watching great dancers, but I watch them in the same way i watch a movie. It;'s entertainment. I don't watch them to analyse their moves, or decode their style etc.. I don't have the eye for that. A truly excellent dancer is like watching a stage magician. Awe inspiring , entertaining and exciting but not something I'll ever dream of emulating.

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    I don't feel depressed or anxious at all when watching better dancers - at least not until one of the leads asks me to dance, and then I quake in my shoes (and my dancing usually goes to pot too!)
    For the most part I agree with that. There are times when the little green Beo called envy pops up on my shoulder and mutters "Wish i could do that" but I know I won't be that good as I lack the will to push myself further. I plod along hoping that by some miracle I wake up some morning with all the skills of Amir, Franck, Andy, Lee, Gadget etc in my head by some sort of magical transferral it ain't going to happen that way

    To me. "Great dancers...are they a source of inspiration or depression?" neither.. they're a form of entertainment and fun to dance with but as I have no aims to be "a great dancer" then i don't feel inspired nor depressed by watching / dancing with them

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    Re: Great dancers...are they a source of inspiration or depression?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beowulf1970 View Post

    To me. "Great dancers...are they a source of inspiration or depression?" neither.. they're a form of entertainment and fun to dance with but as I have no aims to be "a great dancer" then i don't feel inspired nor depressed by watching / dancing with them
    I just wanted to pick up on something there. It has often been said that some dancers show off rather than dance for there partners. Without derailing the thread, I have always thought the best dancers are the ones that have a tendancy to show off 'I can do this so im going to do this' kind of way. Every clip I have seen of J&T or Benji or any other dancer on youtube has been infront of a crowd and there has been an element of showing off.

    Maybe that is one of the secerts of great dancing, the ability to show off. After all you see men that are great dancers. How do you know that they are great dancers? Their connection and lead might be all over the place for all you know. It's their ability to look good to other people.

    Im not saying connection is not importanat. It sure as hell is, but it is only one factor that makes a good dancer good.

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    Re: Great dancers...are they a source of inspiration or depression?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post
    I just wanted to pick up on something there. It has often been said that some dancers show off rather than dance for there partners. Without derailing the thread, I have always thought the best dancers are the ones that have a tendancy to show off 'I can do this so im going to do this' kind of way. Every clip I have seen of J&T or Benji or any other dancer on youtube has been infront of a crowd and there has been an element of showing off.

    Maybe that is one of the secerts of great dancing, the ability to show off. After all you see men that are great dancers. How do you know that they are great dancers? Their connection and lead might be all over the place for all you know. It's their ability to look good to other people.

    Im not saying connection is not importanat. It sure as hell is, but it is only one factor that makes a good dancer good.

    Maybe this depends on what you are looking for from your dancing? My aim, and I assume Beo's as well as many other people's is to have fun, which is a feeling. I want my dance to feel good. I can't see myself in the average venue (thank God! ), so appearance matters less (though I hope that I look reasonably OK). I do know that I've on a few, rare, occasions I've seen someone watching me on the edge of the dancefloor and later they've asked me, so I assume that I don't look like a baboon on speed

    But of course you are going to get the dancers who look good on youtube - what else would you get?! And surely only those who think they look good would post the vids up anyway.

    When they invent a website where you can pick up the feelings of the dance rather than just the visuals, maybe that will change.

    I suppose that the question here is do dances that look good always feel good? And vice versa. Tough one to answer...

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    Re: Great dancers...are they a source of inspiration or depression?

    Personally I have had some really well connected dances in my front room.

    I have also had some amazing dances where there has been a gorup of people watching and I (and partner) have feed off of that.

    If you ask people who enter comps, im sure most of them would say that it is a compleatly different connection and feeling.

    Im not saying a well connected dance is not as good as one infront of a group of people. They are just different.

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    Re: Great dancers...are they a source of inspiration or depression?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post
    I just wanted to pick up on something there. It has often been said that some dancers show off rather than dance for there partners. Without derailing the thread, I have always thought the best dancers are the ones that have a tendancy to show off 'I can do this so im going to do this' kind of way. Every clip I have seen of J&T or Benji or any other dancer on youtube has been infront of a crowd and there has been an element of showing off.

    Maybe that is one of the secerts of great dancing, the ability to show off. a good dancer good.
    That just reflects on what you perceive to be great dancing.

    Obviously stuff you see on youtube are danced for a crowd, in WCS both in Classic and JnJ (and obviously in showcase) the audience reaction plays a big part... dancers at that level get judged on showmanship as well technique, musicality etc.

    Now when you dance socially with those leads... my experience is that they will never throw a move at you in an attempt to tell the crowd 'look what we can do'. They focus entirely on their partner, try to establish the best connection they can get, and lead appropriate moves from there. Even when I was just starting WCS, and ckeeky enough to ask Parker and Jordan for a dance, I've never felt they'd been dancing at anything but with me.
    It feels great, obviously, and personally I prefer that no end compared to doing, say, a cartwheel with Jordan because he can.

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    Re: Great dancers...are they a source of inspiration or depression?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post
    I just wanted to pick up on something there. It has often been said that some dancers show off rather than dance for there partners. Without derailing the thread, I have always thought the best dancers are the ones that have a tendancy to show off 'I can do this so im going to do this' kind of way.
    When performing, yes. Absolutely - looking good is almost the raison d'etre of performance after all. If you don't show off in performances / showcases / competitions, you won't stand out.

    But I don't think that applies to social dancing much. How it "feels" is more important in social dancing than how it looks to an outsider.

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    Re: Great dancers...are they a source of inspiration or depression?

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    Maybe this depends on what you are looking for from your dancing? My aim, and I assume Beo's as well as many other people's is to have fun, which is a feeling. I want my dance to feel good. I can't see myself in the average venue (thank God! ), so appearance matters less (though I hope that I look reasonably OK). I do know that I've on a few, rare, occasions I've seen someone watching me on the edge of the dancefloor and later they've asked me, so I assume that I don't look like a baboon on speed

    But of course you are going to get the dancers who look good on youtube - what else would you get?! And surely only those who think they look good would post the vids up anyway.

    When they invent a website where you can pick up the feelings of the dance rather than just the visuals, maybe that will change.

    I suppose that the question here is do dances that look good always feel good? And vice versa. Tough one to answer...
    I suppose a point worth making as well, following on from this, is that it's 'easier' to look good if you're filmed dancing a pre-prepared routine with a well-established partner who knows your moves. Kind of obvious, I know, but that's the reason why actors and dancers tend to rehearse rigorously with each other before performing in front of people - preparation and practice makes everything appear seamless and perfect. The proof of this is a series like Celebrity Come Dancing. Granted, the people in the series must have had a modicum of ability, but it's also evidence of what can happen if you dance for eight hours a day for ten weeks (or whatever their preparation was). If you rehearse the same moves over and over again in a pre-prepared routine, you will end up looking very slick at the end of it. This highlights (IMO) a major difference between MJ and, say Ballroom. Most ballroom dancers I have met dance their routine, and don't step outside of it. They don't like (again only drawing on my experience) improvisation, unless they get to a pretty high level (upper Silver, Gold). MJ requires you to be able to make things up on the spot, which is a pretty difficult skill to learn. Sometimes this works, and it looks great. Occasionally it leads to fluffed moves and apologies - such is life.

    The lesson I have had to apply to myself is that no-one can do everything. There will always be gaps in your knowledge and skills. But as Mao said: Absorb what is useful, reject what is useless. Bruce Lee added a good bit at the end: Add what is specifically your own.

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    Re: Great dancers...are they a source of inspiration or depression?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    When performing, yes. Absolutely - looking good is almost the raison d'etre of performance after all. If you don't show off in performances / showcases / competitions, you won't stand out.

    But I don't think that applies to social dancing much. How it "feels" is more important in social dancing than how it looks to an outsider.
    Must agree that how a dance feels tops it for me...

    I also agree with Lee that when dancing in front of people that you do get a certain "buzz" that they are watching which makes you feel great - even if u r doing the simplest beginners moves i.e. on a busk when lots of non dancers watch and are amazed by the complexity of jive

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    Re: Great dancers...are they a source of inspiration or depression?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caro View Post
    That just reflects on what you perceive to be great dancing.

    Oh no not at all. Some of the greatest female dancers I know wont catch your eye in a dance room, but are absolutley fantastic to dance with.

    There is a major diff between social dancing and comp dancing. My point is Comp dancing is more aimed at showing off, hence dancers in comps normaly look better than they would do on a social floor

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    Re: Great dancers...are they a source of inspiration or depression?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post
    Maybe that is one of the secrets of great dancing, the ability to show off.
    I'd say showing off without LOOKING like you're showing off is one of the secrets. I would never say J&T look like they are showing off - it simply looks like they are fantastic dancers dancing. A show off is someone who does something for no purpose other than to say "look at me" - like 16 spins away from their partner - you cant say that adds much to the dance. This'll be why you initially got the fuzzy welcome you did when you first joined the forum. Don't worry though, you've posted enough now that people have a better idea of what your real personality is

    Quote Originally Posted by Terpsichorea View Post
    It's just humbling (and therefore a little disconcerting) to realise what a big gulf exists between you and them
    But also very healthy. There are some people who cannot see the gulf. This happens in every vocation, the "pah! I could do that" syndrome. I'm always reminded of the fight at the beginning of the Seven Samurai where the master samurai is practicing with the arrogant beginner, who gets annoyed at the masters laid back attitude and challenges him for real. It doesn't end well for him Effortless movement does not mean "easy"

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