Cha-cha timing when teaching MJ-ers

[robd]

Moved from the WCS thread - DavidJames

I haven't been to one of Graham's WCS workshops yet (actually I was in the same room when he was doing one at Camber but being paired with Cruella proved v distracting ) but have heard good things about them. I do wonder if they would sync with my WCS experience to date however because my experience of Graham's latin teaching at Southport was that it used a different timing structure to the standard (i.e it was done on the 1 not the 2) and this is confirmed by the DVD recaps of his workshops. Maybe it was a different style/standard of the dances he was teaching but a divergence from the standard could prove very distracting to a relative beginner like myself.

[ducasi]

I haven't been to one of Graham's WCS workshops yet ... but have heard good things about them. I do wonder if they would sync with my WCS experience to date ...

Having experienced at least 8 different WCS teachers from across the UK and the US, I can state that Graham's WCS teaching will probably blend well with your other WCS experience.

That said, I think I've been taught at least 8 different ways to do a standard whip, so there's probably some adjustment needed to do any new-to-you WCS teacher's class.

[Dance Demon]

because my experience of Graham's latin teaching at Southport was that it used a different timing structure to the standard (i.e it was done on the 1 not the 2) and this is confirmed by the DVD recaps of his workshops. Maybe it was a different style/standard of the dances he was teaching but a divergence from the standard could prove very distracting to a relative beginner like myself.

there are different styles of Latin teaching. my ballroom teacher teaches off beat Cha cha i.e. he does a shift step on the first beat after the four count. Some people teach without the shift, which places the Cha cha cha in a different part of the music. It's the same with Rumba. FWIW, I had Graham teach Rumba at the last Red Hot & Blue, and he will be teaching it again this Friday. I was more than happy with his teaching, as were my punters.

[Paul F]

Some people teach without the shift, which places the Cha cha cha in a different part of the music.

If my teachers started doing that I certainly wouldnt go back

[Dance Demon]

If my teachers started doing that I certainly wouldnt go back

Yep!, I suppose it's a case of what you are used to. if you had always been taught without the shift, then suddenly being taught to do it would feel a bit alien...and vice versa. As far as Grahams teaching of Latin dance goes, he used to teach with Dianne Isherwood who was a very accomplished Latin American dancer in her own right, who can count the likes of Donny Burns as partners she has danced with. I don't think Graham has changed the method of teaching his Latin classes since parting with Dianne.

[Lory]

Yep!, I suppose it's a case of what you are used to.

Sorry John, I disagree. There's only one correct timing for Rumba and Cha cha and that's with a weight shift on 1 and a step on 2, anything else is wrong.

Although, in saying that, I can understand, when adding a little 'Cha cha flavour,' into MJ, it fits better danced on the 1 but proper Cha cha is 'always'; danced on the 2!

[David Bailey]

Sorry John, I disagree. There's only one correct timing for Rumba and Cha cha and that's with a weight shift on 1 and a step on 2, anything else is wrong.

Ummm.... not entirely true.

For Ballroom cha-cha, yes - it's "two-three-chachacha".

Street Latin cha-cha (outside of Cuba) is either "one-two-chachacha" or "chachacha-three-four".

Mambo is "On 2", whereas salsa is "On 1" (most commonly in the UK) or "On 2". There are vast "On X" wars between different factions in the salsa community...

In short, it's complicated - but in a social dance situation, it's a completely valid interpretation to step on 1.

But I agree that a ballroom teacher in the UK should probably teach to step on 2.

[robd]

My teacher teaches with the weight shift, and as far as I'm aware so does Graham.

This was not the case at Southport - there was no weight shift in either the cha or rumba DVD recaps nor in the rumba class (as I said I didn't attend the cha class so will not speculate on that). The step forward by Graham for the first basic is made on the 1 in both styles. Additionally (and this is not confirmed on the DVD as the timing is not being called out by Graham) in the rumba class Graham was counting the standard timing i.e 2, 3, 4, 1 but matching this to counts 1, 2, 3, 4 of the track being played. Now that really was confusing.

I know that the weight shift is the internationally accepted way of dancing Cha Cha and Rumba, but it doesn't stop some people from teaching without it. If you are a beginner, you wouldn't know it was wrong, you'd just accept what you were taught as being correct.

I can understand what you're saying but it's not the absence or otherwise of the weight shift that's at issue - it's the timing of the first step. You could discard the weight shift but still step on 2. Simon and Nicole taught a Cha Cha for jivers class at Chill which was on the 2 (and was achieved via a weight shift on 1) - they clearly didn't think the standard timing was beyond the dancers there so I am not sure why anyone teaching cha cha for jivers should think otherwise.

I don't doubt Graham's latin credentials which is why I was quite puzzled as to how things were done at Southport.

[David Bailey]

I can understand what you're saying but it's not the absence or otherwise of the weight shift that's at issue - it's the timing of the first step. You could discard the weight shift but still step on 2. Simon and Nicole taught a Cha Cha for jivers class at Chill which was on the 2 (and was achieved via a weight shift on 1) - they clearly didn't think the standard timing was beyond the dancers there so I am not sure why anyone teaching cha cha for jivers should think otherwise.

You can make a case for saying that chacha on 1 is more easy to integrate with MJ than dancing on 2, in that it's closer in timing. I've been taught a few cha-cha style moves in MJ routines before, and they've usually been on 1. And there's some precedent - some people do dance on 1.

On the other hand, I've also taught a fused MJ / cha-cha routine which was on 2, so clearly it's doable.

I don't doubt Graham's latin credentials which is why I was quite puzzled as to how things were done at Southport.

Well, he's around - Graham, any response?

[drathzel]

You can make a case for saying that chacha on 1 is more easy to integrate with MJ than dancing on 2, in that it's closer in timing. I've been taught a few cha-cha style moves in MJ routines before, and they've usually been on 1. And there's some precedent - some people do dance on 1.

On the other hand, I've also taught a fused MJ / cha-cha routine which was on 2, so clearly it's doable.


Well, he's around - Graham, any response?

when graham taught us a rumba class one night after wcs it was on the 2. I dance cha cha and rumba on the 2 unless i am led it on the 1 and therefore will follow. However my hearing of the cha cha cha bit in the music comes from the 1 count! confusing i know!

[frodo]

This was not the case at Southport - there was no weight shift in either the cha or rumba DVD recaps nor in the rumba class (as I said I didn't attend the cha class so will not speculate on that). The step forward by Graham for the first basic is made on the 1 in both styles. Additionally (and this is not confirmed on the DVD as the timing is not being called out by Graham) in the rumba class Graham was counting the standard timing i.e 2, 3, 4, 1 but matching this to counts 1, 2, 3, 4 of the track being played. Now that really was confusing.
...
I don't doubt Graham's latin credentials which is why I was quite puzzled as to how things were done at Southport.

If they're counting 2,3,4,1 I'd treat it as being taught on 2, but being counted wrong.

There does seem a bit of a pattern of otherwise quite decent latin teachers counting incorrectly at times.

[David Bailey]

If they're counting 2,3,4,1 I'd treat it as being taught on 2, but being counted wrong.

Not really - it doesn't matter what the count is (could be "Fred Mickey Minnie Ginger" for example), but it matters that - in standard ballroom chacha - you don't step on the first beat, or Fred as I shall now call it, but you step on the second beat, Mickey

I'd still like to know why it was taught like that however...

[Lory]

I'd still like to know why it was taught like that however...

Looks like even the experts don't know!

Cha Cha Cha Timing and Break

[frodo]

Not really - it doesn't matter what the count is (could be "Fred Mickey Minnie Ginger" for example), but it matters that - in standard ballroom chacha - you don't step on the first beat, or Fred as I shall now call it, but you step on the second beat, Mickey

I'd still like to know why it was taught like that however...

It makes a big difference to people like me who will immediately associate the steps with the counted value (step forward on 2 etc.) and then later match those numbers with the counted 2 of other musical tracks.

So to me if the teacher counts 2 for step forward it is taught on the 2, as that is what I will have learnt to do.

[David Bailey]

Looks like even the experts don't know!

Well, I think it's well-established that "proper" ballroom chacha has the convention of being on 2. If you learn chacha as part of ballroom, then it should be on 2.

But to me, there's no overwhelming musical case for stating that this is necessary - and other people do indeed dance it on 1. And it might be more easy to teach MJ-ers to move on 1, because that's more like the step they're used to.

[Northants Girly]

I did Graham's cha cha class at Southport.

The impression I had of it was that it was supposed to be a fun, introductory, beginners class with the empasis on teaching people a few cha cha moves which they could then take away and build on in whatever way they wished.

I've danced cha cha on and off for years and this issue of not being taught that cha cha should start on the 2nd beat during that lesson didn't bug me at all. Because as I've said above - it was a just fun, beginners class!

Oh yeah - and I really enjoyed it

[Brian Doolan]

Well, I think it's well-established that "proper" ballroom chacha has the convention of being on 2. If you learn chacha as part of ballroom, then it should be on 2.

But to me, there's no overwhelming musical case for stating that this is necessary - and other people do indeed dance it on 1. And it might be more easy to teach MJ-ers to move on 1, because that's more like the step they're used to.

Why not start on an & count - 5,6,7,8,&,1
that way the MJers are starting on count 2 but think they're starting on count 1 and the "proper" ballroom chachaers (???) know they're starting on count 2.

I couldn't be bothered to think of an alternative to *chachaers.

*Maybe another nonsensical thread can be started for alternatives.

[Brian Doolan]

I did Graham's cha cha class at Southport.

The impression I had of it was that it was supposed to be a fun, introductory, beginners class with the empasis on teaching people a few cha cha moves which they could then take away and build on in whatever way they wished.

I've danced cha cha on and off for years and this issue of not being taught that cha cha should start on the 2nd beat during that lesson didn't bug me at all. Because as I've said above - it was a just fun, beginners class!

Oh yeah - and I really enjoyed it

Nice one!!

[David Bailey]

I did Graham's cha cha class at Southport.

The impression I had of it was that it was supposed to be a fun, introductory, beginners class with the empasis on teaching people a few cha cha moves which they could then take away and build on in whatever way they wished.

Well, when I did Anton and Erin's cha-cha class the year before, they definitely taught on 2, so nerr

I'm not saying teaching on 1 is a bad idea - I'd just like to know why it was taught that way.

[HelenB]

This was not the case at Southport ..{snip}..in the rumba class Graham was counting the standard timing i.e 2, 3, 4, 1 but matching this to counts 1, 2, 3, 4 of the track being played. Now that really was confusing.

From watching the cha-cha class at SP, this was also the case.

Fair enough teach the cha/rumba on the 1, but to count the class on the standard timing then to change this when the music was on ...

I'm afraid I left the class as it was too frustrating (and would have whatever the dance/teacher if the way they counted the move kept changing)