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Thread: Why is any particular lead technique important?

  1. #21
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    Re: Why is any particular lead technique important?

    Quote Originally Posted by Franck View Post
    I'm interested in how you achieved this. My guess is that you're using a visual connection, but it would be great if you could describe the above technique in more details.
    It's completely non-visual - one or both parties could happily have their eyes shut, and it would make no difference. When it was demonstrated on me... I had a completely relaxed arm, didn't have a clue what to expect, then suddenly I found myself led into a fully connected rock-step.

    As for how to do it... I honestly can't describe it. The way it was taught me was rather lacking in explanation also - it was along the lines of "this is how it feels, now try it" - only to begin with, I was trying it on a wall, before switching to a partner. Never did get the wall to step back though (probably just as well) Feels lovely when you get it right though...

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    Re: Why is any particular lead technique important?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264 View Post
    As for how to do it... I honestly can't describe it.
    now you describe something that sounds quite amazing (and AFAIC would change my understanding of body leads if that was true), and then you can't explain it... not very satisfying that, Stray

    However, there is a solution.

    Show us.

    It's about time we get to meet you anyway

    So... I believe the next forum gathering is at Blaze. And now don't go mumbling something about MJ / lindy blabla.

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    Re: Why is any particular lead technique important?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264 View Post
    It's completely non-visual - one or both parties could happily have their eyes shut, and it would make no difference. When it was demonstrated on me... I had a completely relaxed arm, didn't have a clue what to expect, then suddenly I found myself led into a fully connected rock-step.
    It wasn't when the teacher shouted 'Nowwww...... rock step!'

    Was it ???


    Just kidding.

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    Re: Why is any particular lead technique important?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caro View Post
    now you describe something that sounds quite amazing (and AFAIC would change my understanding of body leads if that was true), and then you can't explain it... not very satisfying that, Stray

    However, there is a solution.

    Show us.
    mutter
    mutter
    mutter
    mumble
    mutter
    mumble
    mutter
    mutter
    mumble



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    Re: Why is any particular lead technique important?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caro View Post
    now you describe something that sounds quite amazing (and AFAIC would change my understanding of body leads if that was true), and then you can't explain it... not very satisfying that, Stray
    No - I guess not....

    Thinking about this a little more - there are two things to explain - one is the body-leading of moves in opposition to ones own direction of movement, which is a little easier to explain... and the other is the 'instant connection technique described earlier. Which is the one I really struggle with. Perhaps when I have more experience of using it....

    The first: as Franck has already said, body leads do involve the arms - it's just that the movement, and the real power of the move comes from the core.

    Easier example first: if I am in close-hold with a follower, but only using my right arm on her back - left hand is not used - and I want to lead her to step back while I do the same... I set up a tension in opposition to the direction I want her to move (ie toward me) - then release it to signal lead the step. There's more to it than that, but that's the general principle - a key thing though is that my own body must mirror what I want my partner to do for her to feel what I want. OK - so maybe that isn't so easy to explain - hope it gives a rough idea though. This could be done with an arm-lead, I think, but it would be a lot harder.

    Second one is the ealier rock-step example - the bit I really can't explain is how one gets the 'instant connection' - I found it quite freaky, tbh... but once one has it, I've thought of a decent analogy. Imagine a newton's cradle. My body initiates the force which goes through my arm to the follower's arm & hence body - this induces the step back, while I'm doing the same thing... but our hands stay (more-or-less) still.

    It's a lovely feeling.

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    Re: Why is any particular lead technique important?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thetruth View Post
    I am sure you are not talking about Tango from experience? My teacher has never mentioned leading from the hands. You do not lead from the arms.
    I'm going to make a crazy stab in the dark and assume Franck knows a bit about this sort of thing already...

    Quote Originally Posted by Thetruth View Post
    Its all about balance. With the follow leaning into you and their balance dependent upon your lead from the chest.
    OK, getting serious now (as we're talking about Tango), then as far as I know, the only time a follow actually leans into you (i.e. you have a shared centre of balance - if one of you steps away the other falls down) is in the very specific apilado style. In most AT styles, the follower is most definitely on her own axis (as is the leader of course).

    Of course there are specific moves which involve leaning, colgadas and volcadas for example, but they're exceptions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thetruth View Post
    There are numerous exercises to learn how to lead from the chest.
    Or the centre, even...

    Quote Originally Posted by Thetruth View Post
    Seriously, you should consider not answering questions relating to other dance styles in an MJ context.
    Why not? Franck's certainly the best lead-and-follow teacher in Ceroc in the UK, and arguably one of the top 2-3 in MJ as a whole. If he doesn't know what he's talking about, who does?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thetruth View Post
    Other none experienced dance will be mislead and may also cause injury to other dancers if taking up the advice. But I am sure you meant it in good faith................
    I can't see many people being injured by body-leading rather than arm-leading. But now I'm dying for Amir to chip in with some suggestions now for you to comment on

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    Re: Why is any particular lead technique important?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264 View Post
    Thinking about this a little more - there are two things to explain - one is the body-leading of moves in opposition to ones own direction of movement, which is a little easier to explain... [...]

    The first: as Franck has already said, body leads do involve the arms - it's just that the movement, and the real power of the move comes from the core.

    Easier example first: if I am in close-hold with a follower, but only using my right arm on her back - left hand is not used - and I want to lead her to step back while I do the same... I set up a tension in opposition to the direction I want her to move (ie toward me) - then release it to signal lead the step. There's more to it than that, but that's the general principle - a key thing though is that my own body must mirror what I want my partner to do for her to feel what I want. OK - so maybe that isn't so easy to explain - hope it gives a rough idea though. This could be done with an arm-lead, I think, but it would be a lot harder.
    This all makes perfect sense, and is exactly as (at least) Franck teaches this sort of thing. E.g., in a comb, before leading the lady to step away you pull her in a bit. This is best done with a body lead – I think you're probably too close for an arm lead to work well here.

    I've heard similar advice from most (all?) of the well known blues teaches around the UK.

    It's a prep, and it works because the body lead towards you builds tension in your connection with your partner which when released leads her to step back. (At least, that's how I think it works.)


    Still marvelling at the idea of leading a step-back using a body lead when there is basically no connection to lead through...
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Re: Why is any particular lead technique important?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thetruth View Post
    Seriously, you should consider not answering questions relating to other dance styles in an MJ context.
    When I started this thread I wrote:

    Quote Originally Posted by timbp View Post
    (I'd like the discussion to focus on lead technique, not tango versus WCS verus MJ.)
    I'm interested in any perspective, from any lead follow dance.

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    Re: Why is any particular lead technique important?

    Quote Originally Posted by timbp View Post
    When I started this thread I wrote:



    I'm interested in any perspective, from any lead follow dance.
    I was concerned that you were using arms in your tango lead, based on your own ideas.

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    Re: Why is any particular lead technique important?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thetruth View Post
    Seriously, you should consider not answering questions relating to other dance styles in an MJ context. Other none experienced dance will be mislead and may also cause injury to other dancers if taking up the advice. But I am sure you meant it in good faith................
    I'm really surprised at your reply to me as I agreed with you in my posts.
    Whilst my initial answer widened the concepts to include MJ and other dances (as requested by Timbp), the paragraph you quoted (quoted again below) stresses very clearly that in Tango, the lead is initiated from the chest (or centre) as this is where the connection is focused.
    Quote Originally Posted by Franck View Post
    However, what I said applies to Tango too, though as the close embrace creates connection from the chest, it would be impossible to initiate the lead from your arms. As I mentioned the lead will be communicated via the connection points, so if you are holding hands, you have a choice to initiate the lead from the body, or from the arms and done properly, the follower can't tell the difference. In a close hold connection (Tango, blues, etc.) the lead will be communicated body to body, so it would be ridiculous to attempt to initiate the lead from your arms (though I believe many beginner tango dancers who have done other dances such as MJ/Salsa/etc. find it difficult to adjust).
    The above is not complete either as many leads in Tango are initiated via leg or foot connection without using any body/chest leads.

    You seem very passionate about Tango and I don't know how long you have been learning, but I can't decide if you're an expert or if you're parroting something your teacher taught you without fully understanding it?
    Franck.

    There's an A.P.P. for that!

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    Re: Why is any particular lead technique important?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thetruth View Post
    I was concerned that you were using arms in your tango lead, based on your own ideas.
    Not exactly. My arms were keeping a constant frame. But I was using my hand to assist in changing the follower's direction. Bear in mind I've only been doing tango for 3 weeks. I certainly intend to learn to lead it how the experts say it should be led.

    But I am interested in the more general question of why use technique X for dance X rather than whatever works.

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    Re: Why is any particular lead technique important?

    Quote Originally Posted by timbp View Post
    Not exactly. My arms were keeping a constant frame. But I was using my hand to assist in changing the follower's direction. Bear in mind I've only been doing tango for 3 weeks. I certainly intend to learn to lead it how the experts say it should be led.

    But I am interested in the more general question of why use technique X for dance X rather than whatever works.
    No problems.....sometimes people get more than they ask for. But glad you intend to lead how the experts state..... Then when you know the rules you can try and break them, to be innovative. Best wishes in your tango learning....

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    Re: Why is any particular lead technique important?

    Quote Originally Posted by timbp View Post

    But I am interested in the more general question of why use technique X for dance X rather than whatever works.
    If I was to fashion an answer to that, it would probably start with the followers expectations and the problems inherent for the followers learning/responding to multiple lead techiques even if they seem to work, who knows the knock-on effects when considering the bigger picture for the follower.

    However, the real answer as to why you cannot do it is because you are not world champion Once you become good you can personally slaughter the rules of your dance and everyone will nod knowingly and comment upon you unique wonderfulness.

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    Re: Why is any particular lead technique important?

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    If I was to fashion an answer to that, it would probably start with the followers expectations and the problems inherent for the followers learning/responding to multiple lead techiques even if they seem to work, who knows the knock-on effects when considering the bigger picture for the follower.
    Interesting. I recall when Myles and Tessa were teaching (WCS) in Australia, they taught the followers to maintain frame, follow the lead, and understand the character of the dance.
    Although I'm a leader, that seems good advice to alll followers.

    However, the real answer as to why you cannot do it is because you are not world champion
    So what? If I can go to a dance, not ask anyone to dance, and still dance most of the night then I am a success. ON my criteria I am a success....

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    Re: Why is any particular lead technique important?

    Quote Originally Posted by timbp View Post
    But I am interested in the more general question of why use technique X for dance X rather than whatever works.
    Because 'whatever works' may work in spite of your lead rather than because of it. A private lesson in WCS I took recently covered quite a lot of ground on compensation - one partner compensating within the dance for the other and this may be something the followers are doing for you (Note - I say may because I have no idea who you are or how you dance). Adoption of a common technique gives a common vocabulary for both partners to communicate with.

    Having said that, as you posted yourself, each of us has different goals when dancing and in social dancing in particular if you feel things are working and you receive a lot of repeat business then where's the incentive to change things?

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    Re: Why is any particular lead technique important?

    Quote Originally Posted by timbp View Post
    If you think the real answer to the question above is "it's not tango", then you need to explain how and why figures done with one technique are tango and the same figures done with a different technique are not [and similarly for any other dance if you want to say "dance X is led that way"].)
    "It's not tango."

    Techniques define dance styles to a greater extent than figures. A six beat underarm pass in West Coast is a very different beast to a six beat travelling return in Modern Jive. They're the same figure, but lead very differently, with a different look, different momentum, and typically a different step pattern.

    Quote Originally Posted by timbp View Post
    I am interested in the more general question of why use technique X for dance X rather than whatever works.
    I aim to use technique X for dance X, because I want to be able to dance with intermediate follower X, who knows technique X (because she follows dance X) but does not know technique Y (because she doesn't follow dance Y). If I use technique Y, I will be restricted to only dancing with follower Y.

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    Re: Why is any particular lead technique important?

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    Techniques define dance styles to a greater extent than figures.
    I think I disagree, but I'm not completely sure about this* any more. I used to think the music defined the dance style - and yes, often it does (e.g. salsa).

    (One acid test I've heard of, to differentiate the music / steps / technique thing, is "If you were watching a couple dance style X with no sound, can you tell what style they're dancing?" But I'm not sure if this applies to the steps vs. technique debate... )

    I think that there are a lot of techniques for leading which overlap more than steps - certainly something like a body lead can be used in a variety of dances. So technique seems more generic than steps.

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    If I use technique Y, I will be restricted to only dancing with follower Y.
    Possibly, that'll be because it's poor technique

    * Thinking about it, I'm less sure about anything relating to dance now than I was a few years back

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    Re: Why is any particular lead technique important?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    I think I disagree, but I'm not completely sure about this* any more. I used to think the music defined the dance style - and yes, often it does (e.g. salsa).

    (One acid test I've heard of, to differentiate the music / steps / technique thing, is "If you were watching a couple dance style X with no sound, can you tell what style they're dancing?" But I'm not sure if this applies to the steps vs. technique debate... )

    I think that there are a lot of techniques for leading which overlap more than steps - certainly something like a body lead can be used in a variety of dances. So technique seems more generic than steps.
    Latin American dance styles are different in technique and footwork. The lead however, is similiar in all styles. If no music was to accompany the dance it would be easy to pick the style due to the footwork technique and body shaping, but difficult if only looking at the lead. At ballroom socials the dance style is based on the music played. I could recognise a lindy dancer, or WCSer by the music and the footwork. Tango is the same, music and footwork define the style for me. But I would not know this if I had not been trained in these style.
    It would be easier to judge the dance style by the footwork and/or music than by the lead technique. For example how could you tell a samba lead over a rumba lead, if you were observing the lead only? Lead technique would seem generic in the lead in this instance and it may not be possible to tell the difference. However the body shaping would give it away to me even observing from the hips up.
    I agree the lead technique can be generic and overlap in some styles, but footwork to me is the defining of a style to an observer.

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    Re: Why is any particular lead technique important?

    Just to make sure I'm clear:
    When discussing a "Body lead", we talking about transfering the lead's intention to the follower by the lead moving their core/center/chest.

    This lead could move a connected follower visually rather than with any physical contact.

    A "hand lead" is conveying your intention to the follower soley through the physical contact and pressure applied through the connection points.

    This lead could move a connected follower tactally rather than with any form of visual connection.

    If there is physical contact when leading a "body lead", then the boundary between "hand lead" and "body lead" becomes blurred. When both are applied together and work in conjunction with each other, then you have a very good lead that followers queue to dance with.

    (BTW Tango leads can come from the hands; where the lead wants to isolate themselves from the follower eg otchos.)


    To me, leading is leading is leading - the technique used to actually lead dosn't really vary with the dance, only the timeing of when to lead and the intent of movement that the lead is trying to convey to the follow. Beyond this, it's just style and adds nothing other than specific asthetics to the dance.

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    Re: Why is any particular lead technique important?

    Unless you lead with the hands (/fingers), you cannot remain motionless while the follower does her thing*... unless you simply provide the frame and let the follower decide what they want to do - but that's the absence of a lead rather than leading.

    (*which IMHO provides more contrast to the move and makes it look/feel better)

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