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Thread: Ethics and Child labour

  1. #61
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Ethics and Child labour

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    We've been over this fairly recently, so I'm not going to rehash the history. As regards cash, James didn't make a wad of cash out of Ceroc back then, and Mike's not making a wad of cash out of Ceroc now.
    I can absolutely believe this - the proof being how few people make full-time livings out of Modern Jive in the UK. Twenty, maybe? No more than that, I reckon.

    Sure, MJ's got quantities of dancers, but they don't pay very much at all for their hobbies. There are some successful venues with 200+ attendees, which probably generate hundreds or pounds profit a night - but there are also loads of venues with 30-40 attendees, which I imagine don't break even.

    Ceroc - specifically - is a small business, with a handful of full-time employees. I'd guess that the turnover for all Ceroc franchises is several million a year. but that's not a lot compared to most other businesses - about the same as a small supermarket, in other words.

    In the dance world, the only real money is in private lessons, and MJ-ers generally don't go for that approach.

    I also don't believe - given his background and current activities - that greed was ever a main motivation for James Cronin.
    Last edited by David Bailey; 30th-August-2007 at 10:20 AM.

  2. #62
    Registered User Twirly's Avatar
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    Re: Ethics and Child labour

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    I also don't believe - given his background and current activities - that greed was ever a main motivation for James Cronin.
    You're probably right - but I wasn't actually suggesting that greed was the motivation (though am tempted to look up the accounts now to find out what the turnover/profit actually is ).

    However the idea was being mooted that anyone trained by Ceroc who goes and starts their own business is somehow unethical in utilising that training. Yet that's how Ceroc itself started up. I suspect that there are whole host of reasons why people start up independents, and love of dance is probably the main one, and maybe wanting to provide something a bit different, or more opportunities to dance in a certain area. Anyone starting up their own business is hardly going to be doing it to have an easy life or make lots of dosh.

    I also hope that those who hold ethical behaviour in such high esteem in the dance world are not hypocritical and apply such standards to every area of their life... do they only eat ethically farmed food (particularly meat), do they only use ethical financial services (particularly who they bank with ), do they only buy fairly traded clothes and household items... Personally, it's one of those areas that I think about a lot, and keep thinking I should do more about but it's too much like hard work.

    And dance-wise, I never new anything about any of the politics until I joined the forum, and am still somewhat vague as to who the good guys and bad guys are. I'll base where I go dancing on a number of issues, convenience probably being the main one at the moment. The only thing that would really put me off a venue is if it was badly run/rude staff/unreliable experience - so quite personal issues. And the majority of dancers, particulary those not on the forum, will probably make the same value judgements I suspect.

  3. #63
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Ethics and Child labour

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    You're probably right - but I wasn't actually suggesting that greed was the motivation (though am tempted to look up the accounts now to find out what the turnover/profit actually is ).
    Is Ceroc a public company? I thought it was privately-owned?

    But please, go ahead - I'll rep you if you can actually inject some facts into the debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    However the idea was being mooted that anyone trained by Ceroc who goes and starts their own business is somehow unethical in utilising that training.
    Not exactly - I think Rocky's point was that someone who used the training against (in competition with) the organisation that trained them was unethical. Biting the hand that fed them, basically.

    I assume Rocky wouldn't have such a problem with a Ceroc-trained teacher opening up a new MJ venue in, say, Kenya.

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    Yet that's how Ceroc itself started up.
    I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that no-one actually knows how Ceroc started up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    And dance-wise, I never new anything about any of the politics until I joined the forum, and am still somewhat vague as to who the good guys and bad guys are.
    I'm the good guy. Everyone else is the bad guys. Easy

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    The only thing that would really put me off a venue is if it was badly run/rude staff/unreliable experience - so quite personal issues. And the majority of dancers, particulary those not on the forum, will probably make the same value judgements I suspect.
    Actually yes - I suspect "personal experience" is more of a motivation than "perceived ethical behaviour", and in fact that's also the criteria I use.

  4. #64
    Registered User Twirly's Avatar
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    Re: Ethics and Child labour

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Is Ceroc a public company? I thought it was privately-owned?

    But please, go ahead - I'll rep you if you can actually inject some facts into the debate
    All companies have to submit accounts to Companies House, and these are publicly available (for a small fee). So even if it's privately owned, it's still available. As are lists of shareholders, directors, etc. I know that various Ceroc companies are listed already - just haven't downloaded any of the accounts as yet

  5. #65
    Papa Smurf
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    Re: Ethics and Child labour

    i assume its ceroc ltd ? - do you need to pay to download accounts ? not that i want to anyway

  6. #66
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Ethics and Child labour

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    i assume its ceroc ltd ? - do you need to pay to download accounts ? not that i want to anyway
    Hmmm, it's only a quid, I'm tempted...

  7. #67
    Registered User Keefy's Avatar
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    Re: Ethics and Child labour

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Hmmm, it's only a quid, I'm tempted...
    I very much doubt it will tell you much, they will probably be abridged accounts under the small company filing rules.

  8. #68
    Omnipresent Administrator Franck's Avatar
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    Re: Ethics and Child labour

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    However the idea was being mooted that anyone trained by Ceroc who goes and starts their own business is somehow unethical in utilising that training. Yet that's how Ceroc itself started up.
    This is not quite accurate. There is a huge difference is attending classes, learning to dance and then take some further coaching and learn from as many good teachers as possible before you start your own class, which is what James & Janie did at the time, I remember Janie taking many classes in different styles and working hard to devise the moves and teaching methods in the early days. -

    and someone whose training accommodation and travel costs are paid for by a Ceroc Franchisee (usually a few thousand pounds) as well as the time spent on their training to make sure they are ready for the course and improve both as dancers and teachers and then leaves after a few months to set up their own competing classes.

    I would consider the latter un-ethical. Everyone has to learn somewhere; the difference is who pays for it. Of course, as DavidJames pointed out, it would be a breach of contract and it would be possible to sue, but in the real world, courts are expensive and stressful, so you have to judge if the rogue teacher presents a real threat or if you are better off writing the investment off as a bad debt...

    People forget that most of the investment into a night takes place before it is successful, so talking about profit on the night is irrelevant if you have already invested significant amounts of money it can be a big blow if someone you trusted steals your training and then tries to take half of the dancers you spent months or years recruiting...
    Franck.

    There's an A.P.P. for that!

  9. #69
    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Ethics and Child labour

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    i assume its ceroc ltd ? - do you need to pay to download accounts ? not that i want to anyway
    Isn't it Ceroc Enterprises?
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

  10. #70
    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Ethics and Child labour

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    Make sure to look up Jive Addiction's accounts too.
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

  11. #71
    The Dashing Moderator
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    Re: Ethics and Child labour

    Quote Originally Posted by Ducasi
    {Links}
    There's something strange about the links Ducasi saved - when I try to follow them I've had 2 different companies come back from the same link. I don't think they're persistent links.
    Love dance, will travel

  12. #72
    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Ethics and Child labour

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidY View Post
    There's something strange about the links Ducasi saved - when I try to follow them I've had 2 different companies come back from the same link. I don't think they're persistent links.
    Yeah, when you do a search the first link you click works, but subsequent ones can go a little off-target. Probably much the same thing is happening with the links I gave. Buggy web site.
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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