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Thread: Ethics and Child labour

  1. #41
    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
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    Re: Fake Forum IDs and Plants

    Quote Originally Posted by Heather View Post
    I suspect that we are all wasting our breath with you Rocky- it would appear to me ( and perhaps some others) that you would argue about the colour of $hit .
    I'm off to Amsterdam for the w/e - Hurrah, so fortunately don't have the time to engage in this conversation, but suffice it to say that I would have alot to say - and I have already written a number of lucid and sensible posts on the whole DJ restraint of trade rubbish over the last 6 months. The fact that some of you want to ignore that or maybe don't understand them (or want to accept them) are your issues not mine..

    And there is no argument about the colour of sh1t. However, I would like to propose that there two 'objects' that are full of sh1t that are a different colour and these are a nice lilacy purple and blue...

    Have a great w/e y'all.

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    Re: Fake Forum IDs and Plants

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    I'm not going to entirely disagree with you UP because you're 9'8'' tall and I like dancing with your Mrs too much....however,

    Ooops, maybe I have entirely disagreed with you...
    Let me put it this way...

    its Wednesday night I've got to do night shift but I have the opportunity to dance for 2 hours before I go to work.

    There is a local operator who has a class but also has your type of un-ethical dealings. The class is the only on on Wednesday nearby..

    Do I go to his class to get my fix of dancing or do I not go because of these un-ethical business dealings.

    Even though I know of the supposed un-ethical dealings I WILL still be attending because I want to dance.

    When there is a choice of venue do I put the ethics of the organiser as a priority? No!

    My priorities are friends, dancers, music, venue and teacher in that order and the ethics of the organiser is not on the menu at all.

    I pay to dance and will dance where ever and when ever I want.

    You are well aware we travel miles and miles to dance... even calling in to your venue at Twickenham on a Monday evening occasionally.

    It is our love of dance that drives us and if I don't want to base my dance decisions on politics then thats my decision.

    I am aware of lots of politics but do not decide my dancing venues on it.

    I would also say that most dancers at most venues base their dance venue decisions on geography first, then price. When there is a choice most dancers will go where there friends are going .... and will not consider ethics at all.

    Concern about the ethics of dance is the preserve of organisers and very experienced dancers and forum people IMHO and long may they keep it to themselves.

  3. #43
    Commercial Operator Heather's Avatar
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    Re: Fake Forum IDs and Plants

    Quote Originally Posted by under par View Post
    Let me put it this way...

    its Wednesday night I've got to do night shift but I have the opportunity to dance for 2 hours before I go to work.

    There is a local operator who has a class but also has your type of un-ethical dealings. The class is the only on on Wednesday nearby..

    Do I go to his class to get my fix of dancing or do I not go because of these un-ethical business dealings.

    Even though I know of the supposed un-ethical dealings I WILL still be attending because I want to dance.

    When there is a choice of venue do I put the ethics of the organiser as a priority? No!

    My priorities are friends, dancers, music, venue and teacher in that order and the ethics of the organiser is not on the menu at all.

    I pay to dance and will dance where ever and when ever I want.

    You are well aware we travel miles and miles to dance... even calling in to your venue at Twickenham on a Monday evening occasionally.

    It is our love of dance that drives us and if I don't want to base my dance decisions on politics then thats my decision.

    I am aware of lots of politics but do not decide my dancing venues on it.

    I would also say that most dancers at most venues base their dance venue decisions on geography first, then price. When there is a choice most dancers will go where there friends are going .... and will not consider ethics at all.

    Concern about the ethics of dance is the preserve of organisers and very experienced dancers and forum people IMHO and long may they keep it to themselves.


    Well said!! My sentiments exactly!


    Heather

  4. #44
    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
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    Re: Fake Forum IDs and Plants

    Quote Originally Posted by under par View Post
    Let me put it this way...

    its Wednesday night I've got to do night shift but I have the opportunity to dance for 2 hours before I go to work.

    There is a local operator who has a class but also has your type of un-ethical dealings. The class is the only on on Wednesday nearby..

    Do I go to his class to get my fix of dancing or do I not go because of these un-ethical business dealings.

    Even though I know of the supposed un-ethical dealings I WILL still be attending because I want to dance.

    When there is a choice of venue do I put the ethics of the organiser as a priority? No!

    My priorities are friends, dancers, music, venue and teacher in that order and the ethics of the organiser is not on the menu at all.

    I pay to dance and will dance where ever and when ever I want.

    You are well aware we travel miles and miles to dance... even calling in to your venue at Twickenham on a Monday evening occasionally.

    It is our love of dance that drives us and if I don't want to base my dance decisions on politics then thats my decision.

    I am aware of lots of politics but do not decide my dancing venues on it.

    I would also say that most dancers at most venues base their dance venue decisions on geography first, then price. When there is a choice most dancers will go where there friends are going .... and will not consider ethics at all.

    Concern about the ethics of dance is the preserve of organisers and very experienced dancers and forum people IMHO and long may they keep it to themselves.
    So let's get this straight... lets imagine you had a friend that started a dance night and put lots of money into it and worked hard busking and promoting it etc. etc. Let's say he also put one of his new dancers through the CTA to help him out.

    After a year the night is a success and is starting to make money but suddenly his teacher leaves and sets up in competition on the SAME night. He's been leafletting your mates venue and has started by offering half price entry. He keeps this up for so long that it puts your mate out of business.

    So, now it's Wednesday.... you want to go dancing but now the ONLY dance venue in your area is the one that put your mate out of business. Do you go dancing there or do you travel and extra 40mins and go to the next town - 'cos based on what you've just said above, the ethics of what he's done wouldn't bother you..

    Quote Originally Posted by under par View Post
    Even though I know of the supposed un-ethical dealings I WILL still be attending because I want to dance.

    When there is a choice of venue do I put the ethics of the organiser as a priority? No!
    As I said with Heather, this is the thin edge of the wedge... so where does one draw the line?

  5. #45
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Fake Forum IDs and Plants

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    So let's get this straight... lets imagine you had a friend that started a dance night and put lots of money into it and worked hard busking and promoting it etc. etc. Let's say he also put one of his new dancers through the CTA to help him out.

    After a year the night is a success and is starting to make money but suddenly his teacher leaves and sets up in competition on the SAME night. He's been leafletting your mates venue and has started by offering half price entry. He keeps this up for so long that it puts your mate out of business.
    Then your mate has a clear case to take to the civil courts, based on both breach of contract (I believe the CTA contract specifically states this sort of thing is not allowed?) and - more relevantly - a clear record of significant damage caused by such a breach.

    Either way, it's a business dispute. The CTA-deserter would obviously be guilty of sharp business practice, but I don't personally think that - assuming he put on a good dance night - this is cause for the customers to make "moral decisions" about whether to attend his events or not.

    Now, if he then (after pricing his competitor out) tripled his prices and abused his monopoly position, that would clearly mean dancers would get a poor deal out of it - and one could argue that therefore dancers should support the principle of choice, by supporting different providers, because if we don't then we'll find ourselves with less choice, less competition, and less quality down the road.

    And that's traditionally exactly the argument that the anti-Ceroc crowd have made for supporting independents. You're not thinking of cutting loose, are you?

  6. #46
    Not a spoon! Lou's Avatar
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    Re: Fake Forum IDs and Plants

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    As I said with Heather, this is the thin edge of the wedge... so where does one draw the line?
    It's a bit black & white, Rocky. What I want to know is why the hypothetical new teacher started up his rival new club in the first place? For instance, maybe he disagreed with "Friend" over some of the newly imposed terms and conditions (for instance, perhaps he was appalled about the less-than-minimum wage the Taxis were being paid), or that "Friend" was banning members of his crew from attending other events by rival organisations, or putting other restrictions on his teachers, and so the only way he could create a professional MJ evening was to strike out on his own?

    Punters often have little visibility of the politics. And even if we do - it's never as clear-cut as in your example. There's often other factors involved, that we don't know about. There's ALWAYS two sides to an argument - even if they're not as extreme as in either of our hypothetical examples above. That's why it's hard to give the ethics the importance that you, as an organiser, do. We don't know who to trust.

  7. #47
    Registered User Lynn's Avatar
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    Re: Fake Forum IDs and Plants

    Quote Originally Posted by Lou View Post
    Punters often have little visibility of the politics. And even if we do - it's never as clear-cut as in your example. There's often other factors involved, that we don't know about. There's ALWAYS two sides to an argument - even if they're not as extreme as in either of our hypothetical examples above. That's why it's hard to give the ethics the importance that you, as an organiser, do. We don't know who to trust.
    Which is why many punters opt not to get involved in the politics and just turn up and dance.

  8. #48
    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
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    Re: Ethics and Child labour

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Now, if he then (after pricing his competitor out) tripled his prices and abused his monopoly position, that would clearly mean dancers would get a poor deal out of it - and one could argue that therefore dancers should support the principle of choice, by supporting different providers, because if we don't then we'll find ourselves with less choice, less competition, and less quality down the road.
    Oh peerleeease! Do you really believe that most independents who started their teaching career at Ceroc and who then struck out on their own did so just so that they could give you more choice?

    Get real, most do it because they're greedy. Why only take a teaching wage when you can start your own night up, market to the punters who know you and then also cut out the franchise fees.

    Not to mention ego of course...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lou View Post
    Punters often have little visibility of the politics. And even if we do - it's never as clear-cut as in your example. There's often other factors involved, that we don't know about. There's ALWAYS two sides to an argument - even if they're not as extreme as in either of our hypothetical examples above. That's why it's hard to give the ethics the importance that you, as an organiser, do. We don't know who to trust.
    Of course there are always two sides to an argument and it's also quite possible that each thinks their side of it is the fair and equitable version. However, people's subsequent actions speak volumes and that gives you an insight into who they are.

    I guess we'll all have to agree to disagree. My point is that in everything in life (and yes there's more to life than dancing) one should always take a bigger view. For me personally that means that if I know, or suspect, that an organization is behaving in an unethical matter, then I don't support them - and yes that can be inconvenient.

    We can all make excuses and justify it any way we like - but isn't that just the easy way out...?

  9. #49
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Ethics and Child labour

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    Oh peerleeease! Do you really believe that most independents who started their teaching career at Ceroc and who then struck out on their own did so just so that they could give you more choice?
    Well, that's the problem, isn't it? Trying to decipher people's business motivations, and whether they're "good" or "bad"? It's usually a grey area. Which is why people - mostly - choose not to get too involved, in the bolotics side of things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    Get real, most do it because they're greedy.
    Well, yeah. That'll be capitalism, or entrepeneurship if you will... What's wrong with that?

    For example, to take a purely hypothetical case, I'm sure that Simon Borland's primary motivation is money; he wants to create and expand his business to reap the rewards. And, if he provides a good dance experience, I don't see anything wrong with that - good for him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    Why only take a teaching wage when you can start your own night up, market to the punters who know you and then also cut out the franchise fees.
    Indeed, especially considering the fairly low rate Ceroc teachers get paid.

    But again, if you cause damage to a former employer, and that's in breach of contract, then that's a matter for the civil courts to decide isn't it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    Not to mention ego of course...
    Also true, but so what? All dance teachers have egos the size of planets in my experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    I guess we'll all have to agree to disagree.
    Christ, don't say that

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    My point is that in everything in life (and yes there's more to life than dancing) one should always take a bigger view. For me personally that means that if I know, or suspect, that an organization is behaving in an unethical matter, then I don't support them - and yes that can be inconvenient.
    I feel exactly the same way. Although I suspect our views on "who's unethical" may differ

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    We can all make excuses and justify it any way we like - but isn't that just the easy way out...?
    Yep, agree again.

    I think there is a place to make moral decisions on supporting venues. However, I don't think that trying to untangle the usually-labyrinthine and machiavellian world of dance bolotics is it - I prefer to base my decisions on personal actions rather than on business. If I don't like someone's actions, I don't support their venue.

  10. #50
    Commercial Operator Heather's Avatar
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    Re: Ethics and Child labour

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post

    Get real, most do it because they're greedy. Why only take a teaching wage when you can start your own night up, market to the punters who know you and then also cut out the franchise fees.
    Why would anyone in any job only work for a lower wage when they could go elsewhere or indeed become self employed and earn more money?
    Or does that argument only apply to dance teachers?
    If everyone adhered to your way of thinking, then everyone would be quite content to stay in not particularly well paid jobs, no-one would look for anything with better conditions and rates of pay and no-one would bother to take the financial risk involved in setting up on their own in their own business!


    Heather

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    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
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    Re: Ethics and Child labour

    Quote Originally Posted by Heather View Post
    Why would anyone in any job only work for a lower wage when they could go elsewhere or indeed become self employed and earn more money?
    Well there we go with the moral and ethics again.... why would they do that? Well in dancing they would do that beacause they are learning to teach and no-one in any field gets paid a full wage while they are learning.

    In addition if they then enter into a franchise arrangment they are agreeing to forego some income for territory, know how, brand name etc. etc.

    This all means that they have a greater chance of success than if they started out on their own because they are using a proven formula. So the net result is that most people will earn MORE through this arrangment than if they just did it off their own back.

    Now of course once your established and well known and have been around for a while, you have an option to either to continue to support the company that helped you get your start in the first place or not.

    Again you can define this in any number of ways. The way that I personally define it is that it is morally and ethically unacceptable to make an agreement and then break it based purely on greed. Maybe I'm just an old fashioned boy at heart...

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    Basically lazy robd's Avatar
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    Re: Fake Forum IDs and Plants

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    I'm off to Amsterdam for the w/e
    I trust that only ethically sound activities will be undertaken during this weekend in Amsterdam Rocky..........?

  13. #53
    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
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    Re: Ethics and Child labour

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    For example, to take a purely hypothetical case, I'm sure that Simon Borland's primary motivation is money; .
    You think!? I don't think money comes into at all, with him it's ALL ego..

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Ethics and Child labour

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    You think!? I don't think money comes into at all, with him it's ALL ego..
    Whew, it's a good thing Ceroc teachers all have their egos surgically reduced then.

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    Registered User Twirly's Avatar
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    Re: Ethics and Child labour

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    Oh peerleeease! Do you really believe that most independents who started their teaching career at Ceroc and who then struck out on their own did so just so that they could give you more choice?

    Get real, most do it because they're greedy.
    Isn't this precisely what James Cronin did when he started Ceroc though? Took someone else's idea and developed it into a successful business? And made lots of money?

    It's amazing what you learn on this forum...

    *takes cover, then retreats back to more banal areas of the forum*

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    Registered User Beowulf's Avatar
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    Re: Ethics and Child labour

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    *takes cover, then retreats back to more banal areas of the forum*
    Hey.. the rest of the forum isn't banal.. It may be monotonously prosaic but never banal.

    You know I don't mean it really

    Beo
    (A platitudinous little Wulf cub with access to a Thesaurus !)

  17. #57
    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
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    Re: Ethics and Child labour

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    Isn't this precisely what James Cronin did when he started Ceroc though? Took someone else's idea and developed it into a successful business? And made lots of money?

    We've been over this fairly recently, so I'm not going to rehash the history. As regards cash, James didn't make a wad of cash out of Ceroc back then, and Mike's not making a wad of cash out of Ceroc now.

    I'm often surprised by this assumption that Ceroc is making a fortune out of what it does. Many franchise areas hardly make anything at all. Some of you obviosuly don't realise how much it costs to hire certain venues for weekenders and for some of the freestyle nights in Town. If you then add in what Ceroc spend on promotional activity and advertising across the Country there really is very little left for people to live the luxurious life many of you seem to think they do.

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    Registered User Keefy's Avatar
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    Re: Ethics and Child labour

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    Well there we go with the moral and ethics again.... why would they do that? Well in dancing they would do that beacause they are learning to teach and no-one in any field gets paid a full wage while they are learning.
    So whilst they are learning, and you are paying them less than a full wage because of that, then you are of course passing that reduction on to your paying customers? Anything else would be unethical - imagine passing off at full price something that you knew wasn't yet quite up to the mark and were paying less for because of that...

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    Commercial Operator Heather's Avatar
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    Re: Ethics and Child labour

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    We've been over this fairly recently, so I'm not going to rehash the history. As regards cash, James didn't make a wad of cash out of Ceroc back then, and Mike's not making a wad of cash out of Ceroc now.

    I'm often surprised by this assumption that Ceroc is making a fortune out of what it does. Many franchise areas hardly make anything at all. Some of you obviosuly don't realise how much it costs to hire certain venues for weekenders and for some of the freestyle nights in Town. If you then add in what Ceroc spend on promotional activity and advertising across the Country there really is very little left for people to live the luxurious life many of you seem to think they do.


    The man's a comedian!!!


    Heather

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    Registered User Keefy's Avatar
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    Re: Ethics and Child labour

    Quote Originally Posted by Heather View Post
    The man's a comedian!!!
    Certainly missed his vocation - he should have been a farmer with lines like that

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