Ethics and Child labour

[Heather]

Presumably that point of view means that you are happy to wear clothes made using child labour and to buy products where the workers have been kept in poverty and exploited?

Let's face it, you don't care about the ethics at all (your words..), all you care about is your needs being met - nice..

If it comes to that children in this country were being exploited as child labour up until the 20th Century so this is certainly nothing new. As a single parent I buy clothes as dictated by my budget - so yes. if I can buy cheap garments from shop A, I will do that rather than buy from shop B , bankrupt myself but take the moral highground!! Not all of us have the financial resources to be that fussy about which ethical choices we make!
Lucky you if you are able to do so! As you said 'nice'!!!
I would dispute that all I care about is 'my needs being met' - I clearly have responsibility to see the needs of my family are met - so don't make unsubstantiated judgements about my ethics thankyou!

Of course this is just another example of what happens on this forum - people are far to ready to act as judge and jury with regard to contributers on these threads, whom they have never met in persn and whom they do not personally know - small wonder that some people are put off from posting at all - not everyone is willing to stick their head above the parapet and be shot down in flames by intolerant and ill informed people.


Heather

[Rocky]

If it comes to that children in this country were being exploited as child labour up until the 20th Century so this is certainly nothing new. As a single parent I buy clothes as dictated by my budget - so yes. if I can buy cheap garments from shop A, I will do that rather than buy from shop B , bankrupt myself but take the moral highground!! Not all of us have the financial resources to be that fussy about which ethical choices we make!
Lucky you if you are able to do so! As you said 'nice'!!!
I would dispute that all I care about is 'my needs being met' - I clearly have responsibility to see the needs of my family are met - so don't make unsubstantiated judgements about my ethics thankyou!

Of course this is just another example of what happens on this forum - people are far to ready to act as judge and jury with regard to contributers on these threads, whom they have never met in persn and whom they do not personally know - small wonder that some people are put off from posting at all - not everyone is willing to stick their head above the parapet and be shot down in flames by intolerant and ill informed people.


Heather

Sort of missed the point didn't you....

If you attend events and don't give a monkies about how the operator runs the event, or how they treat people, or whether they run an honest and ethical business, it simply sends a message that you are a selfish individual. You don't care about the bigger picture, it's just about what YOU get out of it.

This of course has nothing really to do with being able to afford clothes for your kids - it was just a point to show where that sort of thinking leads. It's all about what choices you make. So in the example you've given what I'm saying about you is that if you could afford to buy more expensive ethically produced clothes your statements would suggest that you would choose not to, and instead would maybe use the money to go for a much needed pedicure - who cares how the clothes are produced, they're cheaper and buying them means I can have a few extra pennies to spend on me....

I'd like to think that some members of the Forum have a bit more backbone and would take a stand against a company or person who was being dishonest and unethical. You're obviously not one of them though...

[Dreadful Scathe]

Sort of missed the point didn't you....

I really don't think she did.

This of course has nothing really to do with being able to afford clothes for your kids -... -- they're cheaper and buying them means I can have a few extra pennies to spend on me....

So the suggestion is Heather (and anyone else) has always enough money to make the choice to go for the ethically perfect option where it exists(!). You're 'aving a laugh. Shes not Paul Bleedin' McArtney (afaik)

I'd like to think that some members of the Forum have a bit more backbone and would take a stand against a company or person who was being dishonest and unethical.

like when the company restricts what their employees can do to make a living ? When did you start boycotting Ceroc ? or do you not practice what you preach

You're obviously not one of them though...

bit harsh innit ? You dont know what choices Heather makes in her life, they may, ethically, be better than the choices you make perhaps. Who knows?

[Rocky]

Oh dear, that's the last thing you need Heather, DS fighting your corner. Can't wait for the analogies..

So the suggestion is Heather (and anyone else) has always enough money to make the choice to go for the ethically perfect option where it exists(!). You're 'aving a laugh. Shes not Paul Bleedin' McArtney (afaik)

Err... I think you'll find what I actually said was this:

So in the example you've given what I'm saying about you is that if you could afford to buy more expensive ethically produced clothes your statements would suggest that you would choose not to, and instead would maybe use the money to go for a much needed pedicure - who cares how the clothes are produced, they're cheaper and buying them means I can have a few extra pennies to spend on me....

but hey, why not feel free to edit out any bits that don't support your argument.

like when the company restricts what their employees can do to make a living ? When did you start boycotting Ceroc ? or do you not practice what you preach

Yawn... that old chestnut.. is that all you got??

bit harsh innit ? You dont know what choices Heather makes in her life, they may, ethically, be better than the choices you make perhaps. Who knows?

You're right I don't know what choices Heather makes in her life.. all I now of her is what she has posted. And in this thread she has posted that she doesn't care what the morals or ethics of an organization or person are, all that she is concerend about is having a good time.. and that tells me all I need to know..

[Dreadful Scathe]

Err... I think you'll find what I actually said was this:

So in the example you've given what I'm saying about you is that if you could afford to buy more expensive ethically produced clothes your statements would suggest that you would choose not to, and instead would maybe use the money to go for a much needed pedicure - who cares how the clothes are produced, they're cheaper and buying them means I can have a few extra pennies to spend on me....

As a single parent I buy clothes as [b]dictated by my budget[b/] - so yes. if I can buy cheap garments from shop A, I will do that rather than buy from shop B [ rather than ] bankrupt myself but take the moral highground!

So despite Heathers quote here implying that she WOULD buy "ethically" (and go for the moral highground) if she could afford to, you've somehow decided she meant the exact opposite.

but hey, why not feel free to edit out any bits that don't support your argument.

indeed why dont you I wonder if anyone even believes what you type any more.

..mentioning ceroc ethics...

Yawn... that old chestnut.. is that all you got??

Making you look daft always did bore you

Its past history and you don't like talking about it so lets move onto something that supports a daft argument you're making ?

And in this thread she has posted that she doesn't care what the morals or ethics of an organization or person are, all that she is concerned about is having a good time.. and that tells me all I need to know..

Thats not what she said. Thats what you've decided she meant. There IS a difference for intelligent people to notice

So Heather puts her family first; ethical considerations, that should be the domain of big business and government anyway, come a distant 2nd. So?. Who here puts other people before their own ? do you ?

[Rocky]

Again, I'm sure Heather really appreciates you perpetuating a discussion about HER ethics DS...

So despite Heathers quote here implying that she WOULD buy "ethically" (and go for the moral highground) if she could afford to, you've somehow decided she meant the exact opposite.?

Actually Heather's quote here says nothing of the sort:

....so yes. if I can buy cheap garments from shop A, I will do that rather than buy from shop B , bankrupt myself but take the moral highground!! Not all of us have the financial resources to be that fussy about which ethical choices we make!

She does not imply at all that if she had the money that she would make an ethical choice - all she says is that she doesn't have the money to make a choice. Her comments suggested that she wouldn't make the ethical choice anyway etc. etc (been over this ground before...) and she has not posted anything since to say otherwise. YOU on the other hand have decided to edit her and my posts and answer on her behalf - well done DS

Making you look daft always did bore you

Its past history and you don't like talking about it so lets move onto something that supports a daft argument you're making ? ?

Explain to me again how Ceroc saying that their employees shouldn't work for their competitors is unethical... Oh I remember, we've been over it a thousand times and you still don't have a leg to stand on, THAT'S why it's boring..

Thats not what she said. Thats what you've decided she meant.

That IS what she said and here it is again:

...It would never enter my head whether the persons running the event are scrupulous characters .....For me it is the company,dancing and music which is important
not the morals and ethics of those running the events.

So Heather puts her family first; ethical considerations, that should be the domain of big business and government anyway, come a distant 2nd. So?. Who here puts other people before their own ? do you

I'll say it again...

I don't know what choices Heather makes in her life.. all I now of her is what she has posted. And in this thread she has posted that she doesn't care what the morals or ethics of an organization or person are, all that she is concerend about is having a good time.. and that tells me all I need to know..

[Caro]

blablabla

blablabla

blablabla

god I'm so bored I might just get back to work

where has all the popcorn gone ?

[Rocky]

god I'm so bored I might just get back to work

where has all the popcorn gone ?

If you're bored I'm sure there is a good book you could read somewhere - and hey, here's an idea, why don't you take it along to the next dance night you go to and read it in the corner somewhere.....

[Caro]

If you're bored I'm sure there is a good book you could read somewhere - and hey, here's an idea, why don't you take it along to the next dance night you go to and read it in the corner somewhere.....

ahem... addiction is a terrible thing, isn't it


Do you think she'll write an 8th one though ? May be you could play music while I read then ?

[Rocky]

ahem... addiction is a terrible thing, isn't it


Do you think she'll write an 8th one though ? May be you could play music while I read then ?

Yes of course.. I took up DJing specifically so that I could DJ to people reading books. In fact I've just started a regular gig at the local library - mind you it did take me a while to persuade them that music at 110 decibels actually enhances the reading experience..

As for an 8th book, from what I've heard she's planning a move to a different genre, so maybe not.

[Dreadful Scathe]

She does not imply at all that if she had the money that she would make an ethical choice - all she says is that she doesn't have the money to make a choice.

Well, I can see the implication. If you can't, fine.

Explain to me again how Ceroc saying that their employees shouldn't work for their competitors is unethical... Oh I remember, we've been over it a thousand times and you still don't have a leg to stand on, THAT'S why it's boring..

What makes, or doesn't make an Ethical business is an opinion... and many people agree with me that Cerocs decision to ban (not just "say" as you state) their employees from working elsewhere was unethical. You disagree. If not agreeing with you means i don't have a leg to stand on, again..fine. You are not arrogant at all

[Heather]

Obviously the 'Moderation Team' thought the subject of Ethics and child labour deserved a thread of it's own :but from my point of view, removing my post from the original thread, and in so doing, the post which I was replying to, makes my remarks much easier to misconstrue,now that they are taken out of context.


Heather
xx

[Heather]

Again, I'm sure Heather really appreciates you perpetuating a discussion about HER ethics DS...

I don't know what choices Heather makes in her life.. all I now of her is what she has posted. And in this thread she has posted that she doesn't care what the morals or ethics of an organization or person are, all that she is concerend about is having a good time.. and that tells me all I need to know..

YOU started it Rocky!!!
As you have said all you know of me is what I posted , DS on the other hand DOES know me very well ( most of us Scottish dancers do know each other) and is therefore in a much better position to judge what I did or did not mean by my remarks. Thank you Nik!
You, on the other hand, I do not know, having never met you or talked to you in person, therefore I would never dream of passing judgement as to your morals , ethics or character.
However, I HAVE formed an opinion, from your posts,but I am too much of a lady to ever write this on a public forum !!
Perhaps one day we will meet and I will tell you in PERSON and strictly between the two of us what my opinion is!
As anyone who really knows me is well aware, I would never say anything about a person that I would not be prepared to say to their face!

[Rocky]

What makes, or doesn't make an Ethical business is an opinion... and many people agree with me that Cerocs decision to ban (not just "say" as you state) their employees from working elsewhere was unethical. You disagree. If not agreeing with you means i don't have a leg to stand on, again..fine. You are not arrogant at all

Err.... again, how is it unethical exactly to 'ban' your employees from working for a competitor? As has been explained many times before (and not just by me..) it makes complete sense and any intelligent business minded individual can see that. It's clearly been an emotive issue for some people, but that doesn't make it unethical - and what's arrogance got to do with exactly?

[Rocky]

YOU started it Rocky!!!
As you have said all you know of me is what I posted.....

Actually no I didn't start it... you started it with a comment that said that you didn't care how people run their businesses which included not caring if they were unethical or dishonest. All I did was pick you up on it..

[Dreadful Scathe]

Err.... again, how is it unethical exactly to 'ban' your employees from working for a competitor? As has been explained many times before (and not just by me..) it makes complete sense and any intelligent business minded individual can see that. It's clearly been an emotive issue for some people, but that doesn't make it unethical - and what's arrogance got to do with exactly?

something that makes business sense is not prevented from being unethical by that fact. You brought up child labour yourself, I'm sure that increases the bottom line of clothing companies too. So is that not unethical?

child labour,slavery,restricting work.....there are all varying degrees of "forcing people to do things against their will" in order to benefit the business. What about the people ? the workers ? the common prole....contd p94

Your arrogance is that you "know" you are right. Note the inverted commas

Who else has supported you regarding "banning employees for working for others is ethical" then ? Others may have supported you in saying it makes "fiscal sense" (i did in fact) because it clearly does - but slavery does too

[timbp]

Err.... again, how is it unethical exactly to 'ban' your employees from working for a competitor?

I'm not sure whether it is unethical to ban employees from working for a competitor.

But I wonder if it is necessary. Surely no ethical employee would try to simultaneously work for a competitor?

[Dreadful Scathe]

Actually no I didn't start it... you started it with a comment that said that you didn't care how people run their businesses which included not caring if they were unethical or dishonest. All I did was pick you up on it..

Not really. you picked up your own perception of her post. Heather did not say she never cared about ethics or honesty, just that it was not a consideration when going to a dance venue. In fact she said...

It would never enter my head

How are any of us supposed to separate the fact from the fiction and make an informed choice on WHO is ethical or honest. I'm with Heather, best NOT to even bother with the gossip and the accusations and just go to the good events.

Let Karma sort them out, its the only way to be sure

[Dreadful Scathe]

I'm not sure whether it is unethical to ban employees from working for a competitor.

But I wonder if it is necessary. Surely no ethical employee would try to simultaneously work for a competitor?

how can you DJ or Teach at 2 venues at the same time ?

[Rocky]

You brought up child labour yourself, I'm sure that increases the bottom line of clothing companies too. So is that not unethical?

Yes it is - and your point is?

child labour,slavery,restricting work.....there are all varying degrees of "forcing people to do things against their will" in order to benefit the business. What about the people ? the workers ? the common prole....contd p94

When you work for a company you have to abide by the rules and regulations imposed upon you. That would apply to every company you work for anywhere in the World. If they introduce something you consider to be wrong then you should leave. However, saying that your employees shouldn't work for your competitors is (again...yawn..) hardly unethical.

Your arrogance is that you "know" you are right. Note the inverted commas

It's not arrogant to know that you're right...

But I wonder if it is necessary. Surely no ethical employee would try to simultaneously work for a competitor?

Exactly the point.

Not really. you picked up your own perception of her post. Heather did not say she never cared about ethics or honesty, just that it was not a consideration when going to a dance venue.

So: 'she did not say she never cared about ethics or honesty, just that it was not a consideration....' Err... if it's not a consideration then by definition it means that she doesn't care about those issues.