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Thread: Advanced ladies style problem

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    Question Advanced ladies style problem

    I have this problem I can't dance with stylish advanced women. In fact the better they look from a distance the harder I find them.

    So for example; Tatian Mollian is my worst nightmare, but Sarah Van Drake no problem.

    At the moment the only way I can really dance with this type of lady is by essentially following their style. But of course I'm so busy trying to match their style that I find it hard to think of moves, let alone predict where they're going to be so that I can lead them.

    I resort to basic moves because I can't control them and then they get boared so they sabaotage me . Then I get offended and black list them . And then they sit there wounder why I never ask them to dance . And I leave early because I'm trying to aviod them .
    Not pretty .

    At the same time I've been reading the ladies taking the inititiave thread and I've been working on giving women more space, and employing a swing type / conversation lead. And it's kind of worked.

    One girl went from the worst dance of the night one week, to the best dance of the night the next week.

    Only problem is another girl went from best dance of the night to worse dance of the night in the space of half an hour .

    And I'm still not sure weather they're not actually just leading me, and over decorating because i'm not throwing compicated enough stuff at them or weather they're doing some kinda of complicated competition, conversation swing-thing which I just haven't mastered yet.

    Any suggestions?


    P.S i can't work out how to download the spell check and I'm dyslexic

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    Re: Advanced ladies style problem

    I would say you are worring to mutch

    most good dancers like to dance with someone that is in time with the music more than someone with flashey moves slightly out of time

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    Re: Advanced ladies style problem

    I should also point out that I have been going to Ceroc for less than a year

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    Re: Advanced ladies style problem

    Quote Originally Posted by jim View Post
    I have this problem I can't dance with stylish advanced women. In fact the better they look from a distance the harder I find them...............
    A good follower should follow any good lead - Have a little more confidence in your lead

    Quote Originally Posted by jim View Post
    ISo for example; Tatian Mollian is my worst nightmare, but Sarah Van Drake no problem..............


    However, Tatiana & Sarah have slightly different styles

    I have absolutely no problem dancing with Kyle but have to concentrate when following Jordan - yet both are amazing leads or is it that I am more nervous dancing with Jordan


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    Re: Advanced ladies style problem

    I'm just going to reply to this :

    Quote Originally Posted by jim View Post
    I resort to basic moves because I can't control them and then they get boared so they sabaotage me .
    I do what you call 'sabotage' (I call it participating in the dance, though ), and I do it A LOT with most men I'm confident with - I cannot think of ONE instance where I did this because I was bored. I do it because I like to participate in the dance, and (when not practicing) because I have heard something in the music that I want to use, to make our dance more musical (well, at least in the way I hear the music!).

    The best sign I'm bored and not even listening to the music in fact, is if I just go through the moves and do nothing else.

    So... just thought that might help you realise that your perception 'ladies sabotage when they're bored' might be incorrect...

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    Re: Advanced ladies style problem

    I agree with Caro,

    If a lady is sabotaging, she is ob enjoying the music and the dance.

    I enjoy follows that do this. It makes the dance more interesting. Us men only know X amount of moves and dances tend to become more and more repetative until the follow make the moves and dance someting different.

    Jim, with these ladies, just give them alittle bit of time and space and you will get used to it.

    If your unsure how to do it or want more advice on it, grab me at Warmley or where ever you next see me, an I will be glad to go up the back with you during the class time to go through some things you can do and help you out a little.

    As I always said when I was teaching, It's not a Male lead dance, It's a male suggested dance.

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    Re: Advanced ladies style problem

    Quote Originally Posted by woodface View Post
    As I always said when I was teaching, It's not a Male lead dance, It's a male suggested dance.
    I like that!

    I enjoy it when the lady does her own thing, makes me look good sometimes too . When there's 'something' in the music, I struggle to think of a way to interpret it, so am relieved when she does it, if you know what I mean!

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    Re: Advanced ladies style problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Caro View Post
    So... just thought that might help you realise that your perception 'ladies sabotage when they're bored' might be incorrect...
    Also few reasonably sensitive follows would do sabotages if they didn't think you'd be able to cope

    unless they were practicing something perhaps, but I don't think Tatiana or Sarah would fall into that category....

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    Re: Advanced ladies style problem

    Quote Originally Posted by jim View Post
    I have this problem I can't dance with stylish advanced women. In fact the better they look from a distance the harder I find them.
    Some of the best looking / most stylish dancers aren't the best followers, and sometimes they're too busy styling to follow.


    So it is questionable whether it is the leaders problem.

    I think it is a mistake to dance too much to the style of the follower if it doesn't match your own (especially one with a high energy use vast amounts of floor sort of style ).


    It may be particularly true of competitive followers where the focus can be more on looking good. Some do indeed follow like the dream they look like but others ...

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    Re: Advanced ladies style problem

    Various thoughts.

    There's predominently two styles of leading. "Suggesting" and "Commanding".

    Different follows like different amounts of space. Some ladies I can happily let go off completely and freestyle dance with, others will kill me slowly and painfully if I did this.

    Likewise the amount of space a follow wants varies throughout the night acoording to the music, how inspired they feel, whether they've just been dancing with a string of "suggestion" leads and really want a bit less space for this dance, or have been dancing with a string of "commanding" leads and really want a bit more space, what phase the moon is in.....

    You get the idea

    If they play your job is to do mainly three things.
    1. Flow with what they do
    2. Keep going with leading the dance - it's unlikely they want to play for the whole dance (but not impossible )
    3. Enjoy it

    Trust me - the absolute biggest secret to this is enjoying it. As soon as you start to think "Ekk she's bored", she'll probably pick up on it and it'll go down hill fast

    Emotional connection and some moves to inspire her - if you can get musicality in there as well

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    Re: Advanced ladies style problem

    I would say it is real simple, stick to follows who are not advanced and stylish, when you become more experienced you will find that they are easier to dance with. In the mean time you have the vast majority of follows to dance with

    Lots of fun and no stress.

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    Re: Advanced ladies style problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    I would say it is real simple, stick to follows who are not advanced and stylish, when you become more experienced you will find that they are easier to dance with. In the mean time you have the vast majority of follows to dance with

    Lots of fun and no stress.
    Followers have different styles and different levels of ability but the main hindrance and difficulty in dancing with any of them is the mental perception we have of their ability, especially if they are talented, and letting that affect the way that we dance with them.

    Enjoy the dance, let your best abilities flow while keeping dance connection. That's the best way of ensuring that they have a good dance. Worrying about their style and adapting your dance to theirs can only work if you are going to do that confidently and reasonably well.

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    Re: Advanced ladies style problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Raul View Post
    Followers have different styles and different levels of ability but the main hindrance and difficulty in dancing with any of them is the mental perception we have of their ability, especially if they are talented, and letting that affect the way that we dance with them.

    Enjoy the dance, let your best abilities flow while keeping dance connection. That's the best way of ensuring that they have a good dance. Worrying about their style and adapting your dance to theirs can only work if you are going to do that confidently and reasonably well.
    well said Raul.

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    Re: Advanced ladies style problem

    Thanks for all the responses.

    My favourite is Ghosts there's two ways of leading; 'suggestive' and 'commanding'. - that's a good way to think about things and fits best into what I've seen and heard.

    A bit compicated though don't you think? I mean the two different styles of leading aren't just slightly different there completely different, It's like doing a different dance.

    How many people could honsetly say they'd mastered both?

    - Not the type of thing they teach you in your average ceroc class.

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    Re: Advanced ladies style problem

    Quote Originally Posted by jim View Post
    How many people could honsetly say they'd mastered both?
    but why would you want to master the 'commanding' style ?

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    Re: Advanced ladies style problem

    Quote Originally Posted by jim View Post
    eThanks for all the responses.

    My favourite is Ghosts there's two ways of leading; 'suggestive' and 'commanding'. - that's a good way to think about things and fits best into what I've seen and heard.

    A bit compicated though don't you think? I mean the two different styles of leading aren't just slightly different there completely different, It's like doing a different dance.
    They shouldn't be completely different.
    Think of any move you do that has more than one possible exit (and probably a usual exit). Lead that move but stop leading immediately before the exit. See what exit the follower chooses, and pick up the lead from there.
    You have just done an "invitational" lead. But if you started the move and kept the lead so the exit had to be what you decided, that is an "imperative", "commanding" lead.

    How many people could honsetly say they'd mastered both?
    "mastered"? who has mastered anything?
    I haven't mastered both or either, but I can give most followers a good dance.

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    Re: Advanced ladies style problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Caro View Post
    but why would you want to master the 'commanding' style ?
    May be.

    I occasionally come across followers who very much prefer a strong clear and commanding lead, leaving them no room to go wrong, think or whatever. It takes all sorts.

    For these followers, you have to mentally go into the "Me Tarzan you Jane" frame of mind and take complete responsibility for what you do, what she does, the stampeding elephants around you, the high-kicking giraffes, the aerial monkeys, whilst looking manfully into her eyes and keep her heart beating.

    Are there any workshops for that?

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    Re: Advanced ladies style problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Raul View Post
    Are there any workshops for that?
    Sounds like you should run one
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    Re: Advanced ladies style problem

    I think it's called Tango.

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    Re: Advanced ladies style problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Caro View Post
    but why would you want to master the 'commanding' style ?
    To keep you in your place, woman

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