Page 5 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast
Results 81 to 100 of 110

Thread: Do only Ceroc Dancers win Ceroc champs?

  1. #81
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Sussex by the Sea
    Posts
    9,276
    Rep Power
    15

    Re: Do only Ceroc Dancers win Ceroc champs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    I do like judging which places 5 couples, on a 1 to 5 basis, the person with the lowest score overall wins.

    No interference by the organisers, all put into the computer and the results come out.
    This is what happens with relative placement. I had a spreadsheet written to do the analysis. However, I found that it was quicker to do it by hand than enter the data. It also made it easier to check as the calculations are all visible rather than being a formula embedded in the spreadsheet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    One thing I hate is when the judges and organisers get together in a room and discuss placings Which has happened in the past in some comps.... how can this be impartial and fair...
    I've heard of this too. It means the most dominant party in the "debate" decides who wins

    IMHO each judge should have an equal say in the result. With the exception of the Chief judge - and then it's only to break a tie.

  2. #82
    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Surrey
    Posts
    1,895
    Rep Power
    10

    Re: Do only Ceroc Dancers win Ceroc champs?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Dear Deidre

    I find Rocky's posts are now consistently making sense, and I find myself agreeing with them on a regular basis. Am I turning into a weirdo? Should I seek therapy?

    Worried of Finchley
    Anyway, Rocky, do you / anyone know what system Ceroc uses in the champs?
    We have been over it a number of times and here is my post on the subject after the Champs. This is of course specific to the Showcase category. Each section has it's own scoring criteria based on the number of entrants and the category style and each team leader chooses the style of judging based on these two factors.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    I've judged for a number of different organizations and they all do it differently. Generally as a judge, you are given guidelines as to the criteria and then you are given notes or a scoresheet to work from.

    I personally mark out of 5 in 5 areas (total of 25 marks): Musicality, Technical Difficulty, Creativity, Dancing Ability and Presentation. I then assess consistency across the performances (if they perform it more than once on the day) and also judge how evenly matched the partners are.

    If all these are equal, the last point to look at is how well they engage with the audience - although it should be stressed, this is not part of the main criteria.

    It's not foolproof which is why most organizations also have a number of judges and generally choose judges with different backgrounds.

    I can't say for all organizations, but I can tell you that I have judged a number of categories for a number of organizations over the last 3 years and can categorically tell you that I have never ever been given a guidline that dictates the choice of competitor. I can also tell you that in each case there were 3-5 judges involved and not at any time did I think any of them had a personal bias. I'm not saying that it doesn't happen in dance competitons, but can tell you that I have personally never experienced it.

    As has been said on another thread, judges are looking at a whole lot more than just what it looks like to the audience (as the detail above hopefully explains). So I can understand how sometimes the judges view does not match up with the viewing public. As also explained, sometimes a Showcase may not be 'your cup of tea' so this does create a bias with some members of the viewing public, but it really isn't a criteria by which they should be judged.

    I would also like to point out that in my experience, some members of the viewing public are way more biased in their opinions of certain dancing couples than the judges would ever be...
    In the showcase section this year there were 5 judges and we were given the freedom to decide our own method of judging - and I personally think that in a small category this works well. What was interesting was that regardless of the method used the placings were unanimously agreed.

  3. #83
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Sussex by the Sea
    Posts
    9,276
    Rep Power
    15

    Re: Do only Ceroc Dancers win Ceroc champs?

    Just as a matter of interest, does anybody know how the judging is done at the Ceroc championships and do they know how the placings are calculated? I asked Mike Ellard a few years ago and his response was that it was a company secret. He said that he'd spent a lot of time developing his method and didn't want anybody to copy it. It strikes me that this secrecy is another reason why we need to take the Ceroc champioships with that pinch of salt.

  4. #84
    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Glasgow
    Posts
    10,015
    Rep Power
    14

    Re: Do only Ceroc Dancers win Ceroc champs?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidB View Post
    All judging systems have problems.

    [...]

    The most important thing though is that unlike other competitions, the final result is not the only thing that matters. Far more people take part in MJ competitions as a way of improving their dancing than those that take part to win. If all you find out at the end is that you made the quarter final, it doesn't help you improve much.

    It would be far better to have some idea
    - where the judges think your strengths and weaknesses are (according to the judging criteria)
    - how close you were to progressing further (or not making it as far as you did).
    - the range of marks across the judges (it is nice to know someone likes you, even if most of the judges don't)
    - and to get this info for each round you were in

    [...] I set up the marking scheme for Weston this year to do exactly this. To date, 20 couples have asked for and received this level of feedback on their marks.
    This sounds like a very useful system – is it available to be used in other competitions?

    I guess it'd be too late for such a system to be adopted by the Scottish Ceroc Champs this year, but this in exactly the sorts of thing I'd like to learn from my entry into the competition.
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

  5. #85
    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    London
    Posts
    3,426
    Rep Power
    14

    Re: Do only Ceroc Dancers win Ceroc champs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Martin
    I do like judging which places 5 couples, on a 1 to 5 basis, the person with the lowest score overall wins.
    This is what happens with relative placement.
    No it doesn't. If two couples score 11155 (total = 13) and 22211 (total = 8), the couple with 11155 takes first place under relative placement.

  6. #86
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Sussex by the Sea
    Posts
    9,276
    Rep Power
    15

    Re: Do only Ceroc Dancers win Ceroc champs?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    No it doesn't. If two couples score 11155 (total = 13) and 22211 (total = 8), the couple with 11155 takes first place under relative placement.
    Sorry David, you are absolutely right, the couple who the majority of judges place highest are the winners in relative placement. What was I thinking?

    I suppose I was agreeing with the process. The one that says there must be a process that is consistent and could be reproduced. The judges going into a huddle and deciding as a committee is not consistent.

  7. #87
    Papa Smurf
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Planet Scathe
    Posts
    12,528
    Blog Entries
    6
    Rep Power
    18

    Re: Do only Ceroc Dancers win Ceroc champs?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Dear Deidre

    I find Rocky's posts are now consistently making sense, and I find myself agreeing with them on a regular basis. Am I turning into a weirdo? Should I seek therapy?

    Worried of Finchley

    you're scared of agony smurf now aintcha ?

  8. #88
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Norf Lundin
    Posts
    17,001
    Blog Entries
    1
    Rep Power
    18

    Re: Do only Ceroc Dancers win Ceroc champs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    you're scared of agony smurf now aintcha ?
    Well, I couldn't decide between Agony Smurf and Auntie Trouble, you're both equally scary.

  9. #89
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Sunny KSA :/
    Posts
    3,383
    Rep Power
    10

    Re: Do only Ceroc Dancers win Ceroc champs?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidB View Post
    Yes - I do have a vested* interest. I set up the marking scheme for Weston this year to do exactly this. To date, 20 couples have asked for and received this level of feedback on their marks.
    And think that more would have asked for the feedback if they were aware of it - I know of one couple who are interested if it's not to late....

  10. #90
    The Oracle
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Posts
    2,263
    Rep Power
    13

    Re: Do only Ceroc Dancers win Ceroc champs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yliander View Post
    I know of one couple who are interested if it's not to late....
    It is not too late. If anyone wants their feedback, then simply PM me with your number and an email address.

  11. #91
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Sunny KSA :/
    Posts
    3,383
    Rep Power
    10

    Re: Do only Ceroc Dancers win Ceroc champs?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidB View Post
    It is not too late. If anyone wants their feedback, then simply PM me with your number and an email address.
    Will pass that on David and thank you for all your work

  12. #92
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Stratford-upon-Avo
    Posts
    437
    Rep Power
    9

    Re: Do only Ceroc Dancers win Ceroc champs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    And your statement of 'Does Ceroc??? No' is based on what exactly? You don't even know how the scoring system in the comps you help organize work!

    Its called lack of interest re our comp on my part but i do know how Ceroc score as i am married to a ceroc teacher who has judged for the Ceroc champs and also judges for the UK Open Jive Comp and who will more than likely be judgeing at Britrock and is judgeing at the Ceroc Scotland Champs and who is a well respected teacher who travels europe teaching who is trained in many dance styles.

    Is that good enough for ya Rocky???

  13. #93
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Norf Lundin
    Posts
    17,001
    Blog Entries
    1
    Rep Power
    18

    Re: Do only Ceroc Dancers win Ceroc champs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Achaeco View Post
    Its called lack of interest re our comp on my part {snip willy-waving}
    Whilst I'm all in favour generally of people having a go at Rocky, and whilst it causes me near-physical pain to defend him, he's been a damnsight more informative on this thread than you have.

    All you've done is diss Ceroc and big up independents, without actually providing any, you know, information. You've then claimed lack of interest as a rationale for this complete vagueness.

    Clearly, based on information from the Davids, there is no "magic system" which can be used - each one has pros and cons.

    So to claim that Ceroc are deliberately using a "inferior" system (to, in your words, "know" this), then to fail to back this "knowledge" up, just makes your posts look non-authoritative.

    I believe that all the major MJ competitions are run as honestly as possible.
    I also believe that all the judges are as thorough and painstaking as they can possibly be, and that being a judge is a completely thankless task, because of the constant second-guessing that goes on after each competition.

    And the transparency offered by people like DavidB - effectivley, free consultancy - goes way beyond what one might expect from a judge - it's almost worthwhile competing just for that.

    It's interesting to compare the judging mechanisms, and the posts on this thread doing that have been very informative. But if you're going to diss Ceroc, then at least try to do it intelligently.

  14. #94
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Sussex by the Sea
    Posts
    9,276
    Rep Power
    15

    Re: Do only Ceroc Dancers win Ceroc champs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Achaeco View Post
    Its called lack of interest re our comp on my part but i do know how Ceroc score as i am married to a ceroc teacher who has judged for the Ceroc champs and also judges for the UK Open Jive Comp and who will more than likely be judgeing at Britrock and is judgeing at the Ceroc Scotland Champs and who is a well respected teacher who travels europe teaching who is trained in many dance styles.

    Is that good enough for ya Rocky???
    Whilst you may know how the judges score at the Ceroc champs, do you know how those scores are analysed? And, are you willing to share that knowledge with us?

    And you're wife is judging at Britrock. I can't wait - This year I will be using the "Topless Judging Method" at Britrock. Judges will be required to deliver their score sheet to the adjudicator wearing nothing but a studded leather thong and carrying a riding crop - the score for each competitor will be communicated by whipping the adjudicator's bare bottom once for each point awarded. I'm just guessing from the way Mike Ellard dances, but, I think this is also the method used at the Ceroc championships

  15. #95
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Norf Lundin
    Posts
    17,001
    Blog Entries
    1
    Rep Power
    18

    Re: Do only Ceroc Dancers win Ceroc champs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    And you're wife is judging at Britrock. I can't wait - This year I will be using the "Topless Judging Method" at Britrock.
    Advert! Plant!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Judges will be required to deliver their score sheet to the adjudicator wearing nothing but a studded leather thong and carrying a riding crop - the score for each competitor will be communicated by whipping the adjudicator's bare bottom once for each point awarded. I'm just guessing from the way Mike Ellard dances, but, I think this is also the method used at the Ceroc championships
    See, now that's a real method.

    But, errrr... if you're planning on DavidB judging, can he be excused from the dress code?

  16. #96
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Sussex by the Sea
    Posts
    9,276
    Rep Power
    15

    Re: Do only Ceroc Dancers win Ceroc champs?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    But, errrr... if you're planning on DavidB judging, can he be excused from the dress code?
    I have a feeling that his leather thong will need a few more studs than mine - I also have a feeling that David B might not be able to see his own studs - my final feeling is that, having written the previous line, David B would mark everyone very highly so that he can beat out that score for longer

  17. #97
    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Surrey
    Posts
    1,895
    Rep Power
    10

    Re: Do only Ceroc Dancers win Ceroc champs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Achaeco View Post
    I think, NO, i know you are wrong.
    I know two independents that use a scoring system that is used world wide and is a way of not letting one persons favourite to win.

    Does Ceroc??? No.
    Quote Originally Posted by Achaeco View Post
    Is that good enough for ya Rocky???
    I think we're at crossed porpoises here and I do hate upsetting fishy mamalians. Do Ceroc implement the system you're referring to? No. Do they implement a scoring system that is a way of not letting one person's favourite win? Yes.

    Kipper anyone?

  18. #98
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Stratford-upon-Avo
    Posts
    437
    Rep Power
    9

    Re: Do only Ceroc Dancers win Ceroc champs?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Whilst I'm all in favour generally of people having a go at Rocky, and whilst it causes me near-physical pain to defend him, he's been a damnsight more informative on this thread than you have.

    All you've done is diss Ceroc and big up independents, without actually providing any, you know, information. You've then claimed lack of interest as a rationale for this complete vagueness.

    Clearly, based on information from the Davids, there is no "magic system" which can be used - each one has pros and cons.

    So to claim that Ceroc are deliberately using a "inferior" system (to, in your words, "know" this), then to fail to back this "knowledge" up, just makes your posts look non-authoritative.

    I believe that all the major MJ competitions are run as honestly as possible.
    I also believe that all the judges are as thorough and painstaking as they can possibly be, and that being a judge is a completely thankless task, because of the constant second-guessing that goes on after each competition.

    And the transparency offered by people like DavidB - effectivley, free consultancy - goes way beyond what one might expect from a judge - it's almost worthwhile competing just for that.

    It's interesting to compare the judging mechanisms, and the posts on this thread doing that have been very informative. But if you're going to diss Ceroc, then at least try to do it intelligently.

    Please Mr James do tell me where i have "Dissed" Ceroc. I have infact stated that i am not saying Ceroc favour anyone.

    Also i do agree with DavidB but where does DavidB get his thoughts from, i would presume it is from judgeing at various comps, both Ceroc and independents. Its one of the easiest things in the world to find fault with others and then put them right. If things were that easy, would'nt we all do it?

  19. #99
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Stratford-upon-Avo
    Posts
    437
    Rep Power
    9

    Re: Do only Ceroc Dancers win Ceroc champs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Whilst you may know how the judges score at the Ceroc champs, do you know how those scores are analysed? And, are you willing to share that knowledge with us?

    And you're wife is judging at Britrock. I can't wait - This year I will be using the "Topless Judging Method" at Britrock. Judges will be required to deliver their score sheet to the adjudicator wearing nothing but a studded leather thong and carrying a riding crop - the score for each competitor will be communicated by whipping the adjudicator's bare bottom once for each point awarded. I'm just guessing from the way Mike Ellard dances, but, I think this is also the method used at the Ceroc championships
    OOOer. I shall turn up myself to see that.

  20. #100
    The Oracle
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Posts
    2,263
    Rep Power
    13

    Re: Do only Ceroc Dancers win Ceroc champs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    the adjudicator wearing nothing but a studded leather thong and carrying a riding crop
    That's an improvement over the Sumo outfit.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Does anyone actually pay to go to a Ceroc London Class?
    By cerebus636 in forum Let's talk about dance
    Replies: 26
    Last Post: 2nd-April-2008, 10:50 PM
  2. Forum Frequently Asked Questions
    By Gadget in forum Forum technical problems / Questions / Suggestions..
    Replies: 54
    Last Post: 28th-November-2006, 10:56 AM
  3. Ceroc Champs 2006 DVD
    By Classified Adverts in forum Chit Chat
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 31st-August-2006, 12:28 AM
  4. Ceroc Champs video
    By Rachel in forum Chit Chat
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 17th-January-2005, 08:45 PM
  5. Ceroc Champs
    By Paul F in forum Social events
    Replies: 28
    Last Post: 23rd-April-2004, 10:08 AM

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •