Do only Ceroc Dancers win Ceroc champs?

[Andy McGregor]

That's an improvement over the Sumo outfit.

And I found the salt got into your suede soles and made your studs rust

[David Bailey]

Please Mr James do tell me where i have "Dissed" Ceroc. I have infact stated that i am not saying Ceroc favour anyone.

Well, you said originally:

I know two independents that use a scoring system that is used world wide and is a way of not letting one persons favourite to win.

Does Ceroc??? No.

Which - to me, and presumably others - implies that you think that Ceroc do use a system which allows one person's favourite to win.

If I misunderstood you, then my apologies , but that's the way it came across to me.

where does DavidB get his thoughts from

Ah, now that's what I call a leading question. New thread, anyone?

Its one of the easiest things in the world to find fault with others and then put them right. If things were that easy, would'nt we all do it?

We're all armchair critics, yes - on the other hand, this forum does occasionally provide useful feedback.

[DavidB]

I don't think I've seen a judging system in use that allows "one person's favourite to win".

The potential problem that some judging systems try to overcome is "one person's least favourite not winning". It is a subtle, but important difference.

[Andy McGregor]

I don't think I've seen a judging system in use that allows "one person's favourite to win".

However, there are scoring systems that can allow one judge to have much more influence than others by them scoring their favourite very high and the others very low. If one judge out of 5 gives their favourite 10 out of 10 and the rest 1 out of 10 and the other judges only have one point difference between their scores the judge with the favourite will have made a difference of 9 points whilst the other judges combined difference would only be 4. In those circumstances there is, theorectically, the opportunity for the biased judge to pick the winner. However, it is very unlikely to happen this way.

[Martin]

However, there are scoring systems that can allow one judge to have much more influence than others by them scoring their favourite very high and the others very low. If one judge out of 5 gives their favourite 10 out of 10 and the rest 1 out of 10 and the other judges only have one point difference between their scores the judge with the favourite will have made a difference of 9 points whilst the other judges combined difference would only be 4. In those circumstances there is, theorectically, the opportunity for the biased judge to pick the winner. However, it is very unlikely to happen this way.

I am not a fan of relative placement, I like the lowest score wins.
Score 1 to 5, for 5 couples 11155 = 13, 22211 = 8...... 8 wins...

I hate the 1 to 10, coz that can give one judge the chance to effect the placings a lot, especially if you only have 4 or 5 judges.
If most judges score between 4 and 7 and 1 judge scores 10's and 1's, then that one judge has more of an affect.

I was told in my first UK comp, that one judge marked me 1 for presentation, coz I did not smile... otherwise I would have placed.... That is what I was told by the judge sitting next to the "one who gave me 1".

That is all pre 'Ceroc running a champs', but it has taught me to

In most comps in Aussie we now have 10 judges and marks are 1 to 5 (if 5 couples) it all goes into the computer and lowest score wins, organisers are not involved in the judging process. AND THERE IS NO LET'S SIT AND CHAT ABOUT IT...

One company in Aussie does not subscribe to this, but the rest do.... Guess what comp is not attended by all dancers!!!!

[David Franklin]

I am not a fan of relative placement, I like the lowest score wins.

~snip~

I was told in my first UK comp, that one judge marked me 1 for presentation, coz I did not smile... otherwise I would have placed.... That is what I was told by the judge sitting next to the "one who gave me 1".

Of course, under relative placement a single judge marking you down would probably not affect your placing.

In general however, the problem isn't the judging system, it's the judges. Instead of putting lots of effort into making a judging system robust under the influence of biased judges, it's probably better choosing better judges in the first place.

[Andy McGregor]

Of course, under relative placement a single judge marking you down would probably not affect your placing.

In general however, the problem isn't the judging system, it's the judges. Instead of putting lots of effort into making a judging system robust under the influence of biased judges, it's probably better choosing better judges in the first place.

Not only is there an issue regarding quality of judges, I've noticed that certian judges discuss performances with other judges. This could unduly sway one judge to agree with another where they might not have done if they made their decision alone.

I think that selection of judges can have a significant influence over the result, even if those judges are good. This is particularly so in MJ where there are different styles of the same dance. If a judge likes a bouncy style they will award a higher position to a bouncy couple. If the judging panel is made up entirely of this kind of judge the smooth dancers might as well not bother - the opposite would hold true for judges who prefer a smooth style. And don't get me started on the use of judges who don't even dance Modern Jive in the first place - what on EARTH are they using as their yardstick?

[Rocky]

....... what on EARTH are they using as their yardstick?

Franck's baguette?

[ducasi]

[...] And don't get me started on the use of judges who don't even dance Modern Jive in the first place - what on EARTH are they using as their yardstick?

I've been watching various dance competitions on TV over the years...

As a complete novice (i.e. I knew nothing about dancing) I could look and watch and judge who I thought looked the best. I probably missed many of the nuances of the dances, but like all the other people who were invited to phone in to vote, I had a fair idea who was good and who was bad.

Now as a MJ dancer of a few years, I can watch the latest "Dance X" competition on TV and I can still judge based on pure performance, but even though they are not dancing MJ, I can now see a lot more and often pick out flaws which the professionals then pick up on afterwards.

I figure given 10-20 years more of dancing and maybe a few world championship titles in whatever style you care to mention, I might still have a clue at how well people are doing any particular dance compared to others in the same competition...

I think it's fair to say that there are universal truths across pretty much all dance styles – dancing in time with the music, dancing with the music, dancing with your partner, presenting yourself and your partner, making it look effortless, making it look good, being balanced, making people want to watch you/be you/be with you.

I think these are the sort of things I'd look for no matter what style of dance, if I was asked to judge it. I figure that the other judges who are better versed in the technical details of the dance will sort that out in their marking.

[David Bailey]

I think it's fair to say that there are universal truths across pretty much all dance styles – dancing in time with the music, dancing with the music, dancing with your partner, presenting yourself and your partner, making it look effortless, making it look good, being balanced, making people want to watch you/be you/be with you.

Yeah, but the question is of how much overlap there is.

But that system of judging seems to work OK for SCD - yes, I know, it's entertainment not "proper" judging, but MJ's mainly entertainment too. Generally, the judges pick the best dancers, no matter what.

Background counts, but I suspect it's not the main factor - if you pick good people, they'll do a good job.