Do only Ceroc Dancers win Ceroc champs?

[Lee Bartholomew]

Woodface is on my ignore list so I have the joy of not knowing what he posted unless somebody quotes him. In a thread about spinning woodface will comment as if he knows more than everyone else - whilst ignoring or criticising the likes of David B, David Franklin and everyone else called David. When reading this you must remember that the two listed David's are many-times national champion dancers and that woodface has one medal and that is for Double-Trouble from Ceroc - Double Trouble is not especially serious and Ceroc is not an independent national body looking for the best dancers in the country: Ceroc is a franchise organisation and a business. Would you ask McDonalds to judge a hamburger making contest?

From the inspiring drivel Andy McG comes out with if anyone says something he doesn't agree with.

I dont class myself as a Ceroc dancer. I dance all over the place, Ceroc, Mojive and Ginger Jive are all places I have been to this week alone. I go anywhere I fancy going.

But given the fact many people think that Amir should have won the showcase this year, do Ceroc really keep their winners of the champs people that are 'in house' or is it all done fair and square?

[robd]

I dont class myself as a Ceroc dancer. I dance all over the place, Ceroc, Mojive and Ginger Jive are all places I have been to this week alone. I go anywhere I fancy going.
..... do Ceroc really keep their winners of the champs people that are 'in house' or is it all done fair and square?

What is a 'ceroc dancer' in this context? Someone who works for Ceroc? Someone who only attends Ceroc events? Yes, a lot of people thought Amir should have won this year (and a lot thought Paul and Cat should have won last year) but that debate was done to death just after the champs this year and whether or not you agree with the judges choice you have to accept it. More contentious in my mind was the issue about multiple spinning in Ceroc X and the confusion that the official guidance gave.

[Slider]

But given the fact many people think that Amir should have won the showcase this year, do Ceroc really keep their winners of the champs people that are 'in house' or is it all done fair and square?

I have heard that there is a major bias in favour of loyal Cerocers (vs independants) at Ceroc comps, but find that very hard to believe.

[Martin]

But given the fact many people think that Amir should have won the showcase this year, do Ceroc really keep their winners of the champs people that are 'in house' or is it all done fair and square?

Seeing as I am not looking to come back to the UK for a while, and therefore I do not care much about the comeback on champs placings for me in the UK (coz I will not be competing for the next few years at Ceroc London).... I will answer honestly...

duh Woodface, I think you know the answer, Andy may look dumb, but he is not.

Re-read his post and soak it up.

"Ceroc is a franchise organisation and a business. Would you ask McDonalds to judge a hamburger making contest?"

[Raul]

On the subject of impartiality.

IMO The judging is honest but the results are not necessarily impartial - It is human nature.

I presume that the judges are picked by the organisers because of their experience and also their allegiance/connection/sympathy with that organisation. If they are rewarded for their time (as they should) or they get exposure and kudos for being a judge then it increases their goodwill towards that organisation.

That said would you not expect the judges to have some conscious or subconscious leaning towards the aims and wishes of that organisation? I am saying, and I repeat, that the judging is honest but if i was a judge, i would carry out my task for the organisation, in the same way that i would do if it was my organisation.

It is a very small world and like it or not, people are very aware of other people's affiliations and sensibilities etc. There are actions and consequences. Organisations carry more weight than individuals.

Any judging is for the organisation, not for the competitors.

[David Bailey]

But given the fact many people think that Amir should have won the showcase this year,

There are always massive amounts of post-mortems after any competition, it's one of the many things that puts me off competitions.

I certainly don't believe the judges are biased towards any particular couples based on their business affiliations, that'd lose all credibility. I can't imagine Lily being swayed by those considerations for one second, for example.

However, the choice of judges for a competition will influence their judgements - their backgrounds and specialisations will probably influence the aspects of dance they focus on, for example.

So, if the judges were picked exclusively from within the Ceroc organisation, their backgrounds and specialisations would reflect the Ceroc backgrounds and specialisations, rather than the wide MJ world as a whole. Therefore, a panel of Ceroc-only judges might as a whole express a preference towards the type of dancing found within Ceroc.

I've no idea whether this is the case, or what criteria are used to select the judges however (who were the judges for the 2007 champs?)

However, if the judges are selected from the MJ world as a whole, then I'd expect there to be no more bias than at any other competition.

So, the question is mainly based on who the judging team are - anyone know? Were they all Ceroc-affiliated?

[Lee Bartholomew]

Very good point DJ.

I don't know who judges were. I know Rocky and I think Val judged as did Sally who teaches for Ceroc Kent at High Rocks.

[Achaeco]

But given the fact many people think that Amir should have won the showcase this year, do Ceroc really keep their winners of the champs people that are 'in house' or is it all done fair and square?

What do you think???

[Achaeco]

There are always massive amounts of post-mortems after any competition, it's one of the many things that puts me off competitions.

I certainly don't believe the judges are biased towards any particular couples based on their business affiliations, that'd lose all credibility. I can't imagine Lily being swayed by those considerations for one second, for example.

However, the choice of judges for a competition will influence their judgements - their backgrounds and specialisations will probably influence the aspects of dance they focus on, for example.

So, if the judges were picked exclusively from within the Ceroc organisation, their backgrounds and specialisations would reflect the Ceroc backgrounds and specialisations, rather than the wide MJ world as a whole. Therefore, a panel of Ceroc-only judges might as a whole express a preference towards the type of dancing found within Ceroc.

I've no idea whether this is the case, or what criteria are used to select the judges however (who were the judges for the 2007 champs?)

However, if the judges are selected from the MJ world as a whole, then I'd expect there to be no more bias than at any other competition.

So, the question is mainly based on who the judging team are - anyone know? Were they all Ceroc-affiliated?

In some way or another, Yes they were.

[David Bailey]

In some way or another, Yes they were.

If so, then I think there'd be s a case for saying that there may well be some institutional bias towards favouring the type of dancing promoted by Ceroc.

Note how that is a looooong way from saying "XYZ didn't win because they're not Ceroc teachers", which would be a ridiculous extension of my extremely cautious statement. I stongly believe that competitors are judged on their dancing, not on their external commercial affiliations.

[Lee Bartholomew]

What do you think???

I think DJ is correct in saying that it is bound to affect it but not consciously.

At least I would hope that is the case. With the Ceroc Showcase's this year I had my Fave but I was not having to tick boxes. My fave looked good to me but might not have scored the point technically.

As for the winners of the comps, I can see how to someone who feels ceroc is all that is evil in the world might think that ceroc are Biased as winners included Alex Faulkner Lisa Richardson and Tom Baker (all worthy wimmers IMO) but then again it included some people who are netural Like Danny & Frankie and Graham and Becki and also (as I think has been known to all ) me who someone who is a non ceroc teacher.

[Achaeco]

It's a question to guage people opinion, thats what I think. Nothing stupid about it.

There are people who think that it is kept more 'in house' and people that think it isn't. Could be an interesting discussion. It would be nice if these debates could be brought up now and again without name calling and the like as it makes the forum a more hostile place.

I like to play devils advocate alittle. I quite often ask a question before I give my answer. The question I ask, is not necaserily my opinion.


Why would asking what you think make you think anyone thinks its stupid???

[Lee Bartholomew]

I mis-read your sig as part of the post. Soz.

[Achaeco]

I mis-read your sig as part of the post. Soz.

Seems to be happening quite alot. Ill change it i think.

What you have to take into account when looking at a Comp and asking is the Comp bias is, Where have the judges come from?, what gives this person the right to judge ( what have they accomplished)?, DO THE JUDGES HAVE ANY CONNECTION TO THE ORGANISERS?, is the Comp independent.

There are other things that should be considered but i cant give our judging criteria away.

[Gus]

What you have to take into account when looking at a Comp and asking is the Comp bias is, Where have the judges come from?, what gives this person the right to judge ( what have they accomplished)?, DO THE JUDGES HAVE ANY CONNECTION TO THE ORGANISERS?, is the Comp independent.

Interesting comment. I've traditionaly always seen the standard of the C2D judges as above that of Ceroc, simply due to the fact that C2D used to have the 'Best' instructors on their panel. By the comparison the Ceroc judges didn't tend to be recognised competitiors and I used the have the thought that competitiors would ebe judged by people with less experience and experitse than they. To be fair I think the Ceroc judges of late do have some more expertise, but I think the most experienced competitors at Ceroc tend to be on the floor rather than judging.

HOWEVER, I've probably seem more 'curious' decisions at C2D than Ceroc. Quite possibly thats due to my own personal view of the world but it may also be that traditionaly the C2D instructors were from a Swing rather than a MJ background. I'm not sure if thats still the case, but I would be interested to hear if anyone has got an example of bias at Ceroc ... besides in the Cabaret area

[under par]

Competitions.... competitions.... !!!!

What is a dance competition?

It is not something that can be measured like 100 metres race or high jump.

It is subjective opinion of a few highly regarded dancers(judges) on the efforts of others (competitors) on a specific day.

What do the judges base their subjective opinion on?

Three or six minutes observation of a group of competitors dancing..... during this time the judges will also have to assess all the competitors not just one couple and need time to look away from the competitors to record their marks.

So realistically each judge may observe a heat of 6 couples for maximum six minutes .

IF that is split equally amongst the competitors and their marks recorded, each judge may base their judging decision on 40 seconds observation of a couple per round.
( I have based this on 6 minutes but most comps cut the tracks down so it may only be 4 minutes !!)

The judges 40 seconds of obsevation of your dancing in a period of 6 minutes may not always be your best 40 seconds ........

so a competition result is based on an opinion, based on about 40 seconds dancing..... which might seem a bit of a lottery.

I don't envy judges responsibility to make these decisions.

Competitions in dance should be fun and not taken too seriously IMHO.

As in all matters of opinion it is a personal thing and what I consider to be a great display of dancing could be seen by someone else as a load of rubbish.

There must be a fine line between opinions in most comps as to who is 1st and who is 6th.

I think competitions are a valid form of entertainment and every competitor should be given a lollipop.

[spindr]

One might also suggest that their might be a degree of self-selection amongst the contestants at certain championships, e.g. at least one top double-trouble team was missing from the Ceroc championships -- whilst they are happy to travel considerably further to the Blackpool championships.

SpinDr

[lindyloo]

So, the question is mainly based on who the judging team are - anyone know? Were they all Ceroc-affiliated?

I organise the judges and just to let you know, by keeping it very short, that I use a complete selection of people, not all affiliated to Ceroc. Indeed 3 years ago I used the current 9 times World Proffessional Latin American Champion, Carmen Vincelj and this year on the panel was the Secretary General of the International Professional dance Sport Counsel.

So I don't think they would possibly be aware of who is a regular Cerocer and who is a reguar MoJiver, or do they care!! I think it would be fair to say that the Ceroc Competition focus on talent.

[Twirly]

Since this is the "Ceroc Championships" we are talking about and NOT something billed as the "UK MJ Championships" but organised by Ceroc or anyone else, why does it matter?

Am not very familiar with anything other than the Ceroc one however - so is there a champs organised by the various different bodies within MJ to find the best dancers within the whole of MJ in the UK?

[Raul]

I organise the judges and just to let you know, by keeping it very short, that I use a complete selection of people, not all affiliated to Ceroc. Indeed 3 years ago I used the current 9 times World Proffessional Latin American Champion, Carmen Vincelj and this year on the panel was the Secretary General of the International Professional dance Sport Counsel.

Fair point - but that's 2 judges.

We have had 3 or 4 championships, loads of categories and loads of judges. I am still not saying that any of them or Lindiloo is dishonest or incompetent in any way, far from it but the subconscious awareness of what is expected whilst the judging is taking place, still exists.

Human nature. The results are fair within reason but they are not impartial.