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Reply With QuoteI'm not convinced on that one either. I think it's more that if the leader provides extra time to spin, then you can spin twice if you want to - I don't think it's really about any significant extra force involved.Originally Posted by MartinHarper
There's an argument that if the guy pushes you very firmly, then you should probably spin twice. I'm not sure how true that is.
Most Modern Jive dancers aren't co-ordinated enough to do that (or to spin clockwise on the left foot). However, it's perfectly reasonable to do so, and has precisely the same aesthetic quality as in ballet.
I'm not convinced on that one either. I think it's more that if the leader provides extra time to spin, then you can spin twice if you want to - I don't think it's really about any significant extra force involved.
This all seems really complex. My advice is to turn or spin on the foot in the direction you are going. If you're turning to the right, plant your right foot and turn the whole 360 on that foot: place the unweghted foot next to the weighted foot for the whole turn and place your weight on it at the end of the turn: place your weight on the unweighted foot at the end of the turn and step back with the foot you turned on.
The way it’s taught in my neck of the woods is to prep the assisted spin with tension or cross-pressure. The greater the pressure in the prep the easier it is to do multiple spins, and do them at double speed.
In the Ceroc spin, cross-over spin or any other variation where the woman steps forward onto her spinning foot first this is almost entirely decided by the woman as she controls how much of her own momentum is about to get reflected back through her connection with her partner. Either partner can decide to go for fewer spins than the pressure would indicate by slackening off the connection a little (or even going noodly-armed) but it’s very difficult for the lady to spin more than that pressure allows.
If you only intend to spin once this hardly matters, but for multiple fast spins (especially three or more….not that this is very common anyway) it makes quite a difference.
Angelblue is dead on with her description as “best practice” IMHO. Tessa () is also quite right about doing whatever works at the time for you as well though.
This only works if the follower has the right tension in their arms, with the amount of people who give me a tiny push off from a Ceroc/Lady spin, I only do a couple of spins, whereas someone who understands power comes from the leader, they give me a better spin.
[EDIT]
For instance, the person who usually spins me the best is Caz cause she's figured out the correct amount of tension and leverage I need to spin the number of times I do... She can make me spin slow/fast and actually make me spin a cirtain number of times.
Jamie is right on that one.
Sometimes if im dancing as a follow people seem to see how many they can make me do. The tension has to be right but also the must not pull you off balance otherwise they wonder why you crash in to them or travel
This only works if the follower has the right tension in their arms, with the amount of people who give me a tiny push off from a Ceroc/Lady spin, I only do a couple of spins, whereas someone who understands power comes from the leader, they give me a better spin.
[EDIT]
For instance, the person who usually spins me the best is Caz cause she's figured out the correct amount of tension and leverage I need to spin the number of times I do... She can make me spin slow/fast and actually make me spin a cirtain number of times.
Jamie is right on that one.
Sometimes if im dancing as a follow people seem to see how many they can make me do. The tension has to be right but also the must not pull you off balance otherwise they wonder why you crash in to them or travel
People often comment that I seem to be throwing people round when I spin them but TBH I tend to be able to judge how hard to push them etc and e.g. with Jamie I know how much pressure to give etc.
It isn't just about the follower spinning from the pressure, it is a 2 way connection thing
When you consider the relative forces involved (I vaguely recall someone clever saying this beforehand - I think it was either DavidB or DavidF), it's impossible for a leader to contribute much of the energy to actually spin someone - all they can do is vary the strength of the signal to the follower to use as invitation.It isn't just about the follower spinning from the pressure, it is a 2 way connection thing
So it's pointless thinking you can push people into a double-spin, especially if they don't really want to - all you can do is give a strong invitation.
Compleatly disagree with that. You push someone hard enough and they will turn faster and make it harder for them to stop in one turn. Surley.
Esp with a free spin like the Wurlitzer I think the leader plays an important role.
Last edited by Caz; 17th-August-2007 at 04:00 PM. Reason: Forgot summat ....
To me, it just doesn't seem elegant to push people into a spin - the follower should push off your hand, of course, but like all moves it should be invitational not forced. And providing more energy just exacerbates that, to my mind.
I think the energy in a spin should be mostly generated by the follower - that's both better technique and it looks better. Ideally, I think a follower should be able to spin without any "force" from a leader.
Less is more, in other words.
Yeah agree on the elegant push spin thing....
but ....
momentum from the leader helps... not so much in a push spin but in a wurtlitzer style spin definitely need some momentum / tension on both parts
There is def such a thing as over pushing.
If someone gives a really weak push though, there is no way you are able to get 3-4 spins off it let alone 10 odd.
I can tell if BlueEyes isn't enjoying a dance by the way she leads a free spin.
I think this is one of those things where, the more experience you het, the less help you need. I'm drawing on experience from AT lessons here, where the followers are encouraged to do moves without needing the leader to balance on or support.momentum from the leader helps... not so much in a push spin but in a wurtlitzer style spin definitely need some momentum / tension on both parts
Obviously, MJ ain't AT, but I think that the same principles of lead-and-follow apply.
Ah, here's the post I was thinking of:
As always, David expresses it much better than I could.
I can free spin all by myself... Albeit not as well as someone actively spinning me.
I get what you're saying DJ, but if we assume that the follower wants to do more than one spin, they could apply the same amount of tension in their arms as normal but it would be the leader who makes them do more than 1 spin.
The follower can only get a double-plus spin out of a leader if the leader gives enough tension and pressure otherwise, it'd go tits up...
As jamie says, you have to have the tension there and the force there to counter balance the force the follow is pushing off with.
It is bit of an art form and DavidB is talking about one or two (poss three) spins where as we are talking about 7-8 10+ spins. It becomes compleatly different then
Must resist... must resist...
Yes you must as you only look like an idiot if you do.
You are arguing about spinning with Jamie, who is prob the best spinner in MJ at the moment. If anyone knows how to spin it's him.
I would like to see DavidB spin 9 times in two beats, then I would class his advice as relivant for this discusion.
As I said what David B refers to is normal single or double spins, and he is partly correct in what he states.
Re: A question on spinning
woodface, this thread started with a beginner (who's done ballet) asking about which foot to spin on in Ceroc, and how to stop.
Everyone's talking about single or double spins.
It's only you and Jamie and NZMonkey talking about multiple spins.
yes, especially with beginners.
When I'm a follower, and the girl puts me into a spin, I usually find that she's done it so badly that I'm off-balance at the start, and there's no way I can go round twice.
(I suspect that's the case with the majority of spins led by males as well, but I don't know.)
But if she does it well, I just resist a fraction longer (I don't push back - that would just ruin her good push!), and then simply don't put my foot down until I've gone round twice. But only if I want to.
(Alright, I admit I usually have to cheat slightly at about one-and three-quarters)
When I'm leading, I do sometimes verbally suggest a double-spin, since I think girls are reluctant to try them. But I don't think I've ever tried to lead one.
Connie, you're obviously unusually well-balanced! (don't get much of that on this forum!)
I think you should just do double spins every time! That's perfectly acceptable, even in beginners class!
Go for it!
You usually find people who have done ballet before hand are quite well balanced anyway, it's not that unusual really.Connie, you're obviously unusually well-balanced! (don't get much of that on this forum!
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