Results 1 to 14 of 14

Thread: Muscle memory, friend or foe?

  1. #1
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    bedford
    Posts
    4,899
    Rep Power
    13

    Muscle memory, friend or foe?

    I find that muscle memory is a handicap in class. I am not convinced that conquering it is a good thing. I believe I should be able to dance without thinking too much about the details.

    Is "muscle memory" is a good thing?
    Could attending yet more classes with different variations be damaging my dance?

    I regularly join in the beginners class, and regularly find that I am not very good at it. Once the music starts part of my brain goes to sleep or drifts off to other concerns. The teacher says "catch right" but auto-pilot/ muscle memory switches in. I always use that move to change hands in freestyle, and I always catch left, and, too often, I find myself doing it wrong in class.
    I tried to do a simple Marc Foster intermediate class, which completely lacked "returns". No chance, during the lesson. Immediately after I was able to do the whole routine with returns with no problem whatsoever. That was one of the rare ocassions where I went through the class routine repeatedly during freestyle, and eventually managed to do it and make it look something like dancing.

  2. #2
    Registered User timbp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    544
    Rep Power
    10

    Re: Muscle memory, friend or foe?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    I find that muscle memory is a handicap in class. I am not convinced that conquering it is a good thing. I believe I should be able to dance without thinking too much about the details.

    Is "muscle memory" is a good thing?
    depends what you want your muscles to remember?

    I see ceroc/modern jive as an inprovisational dance. So I don't bother with moves as such. But I do my best to learn the moves that I'm taught; I try to learn both the steps (for both partners) and the leads to make those steps.

    Learning moves gives me muscle memory that X position (which may be in the middle of a "move") leads to Y position, so in my improvisational dance if I suddenly find myself in X position, I have somewhere to go by default.

  3. #3
    Forum Bombshell - Our Queen! Lory's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    North London
    Posts
    9,918
    Blog Entries
    2
    Rep Power
    17

    Re: Muscle memory, friend or foe?

    I'm very glad my muscles have a good memory, cos my brain sure as hell doesn't!
    MODERATOR AT YOUR SERVICE
    "If you're going to do something tonight, that you know you'll be sorry for in the morning, plan a lie in." Lorraine

  4. #4
    Registered User Almost an Angel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Heaven of course, currently on secondment to purgatory
    Posts
    383
    Rep Power
    10

    Re: Muscle memory, friend or foe?

    There are certain parts of muscle memory that as a follow are essential to have. Think back to when you were a beginner ( yes I know it was a long time ago) The first move - would you if you'd never seen jive before pivot round on your left foot placing your right behind you? the minority maybe but the majority would muddle through it fudging the footwork.

    Muscle memory is a friend to a point beyond which you need to work. As a follow my partner needs to know that if they give a certain signal I will respond to that - I need to have certain patterns of movements to be automatic responses to their lead, eg; spins, turns, stepping back, turning out etc... On top of this I have improvisation which allows me to extend or play with the movements of the dance turnign it into more of a conversation. (and dances should be conversations even if there's no talking involved).

    As a lead I do have a certain muscle memory for moves however as the moves are only part of the dance I'm constantly adjusting to the needs (or demands) of my follow and exploring new possibilities. (there are never wrong moves just intersting variations)

    I think that muscle memory is more important as a beginner - you go from not being able to co-ordinate having a follow attached to your hands to being able to dance with the follow through a defined set of moves. And as a follow from just about muddling through to being able to react without realising instinctively knowing what is coming next.

    Angel xx

  5. #5
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Sunny South Hampshire
    Posts
    873
    Rep Power
    10

    Re: Muscle memory, friend or foe?

    I don't really know what muscle memory is.

    When I was a sportman (grin), I used to assume muscle memory was what made me play certain shots in the technically correct manner. The choice of shot was always brain led.

    Similarly, in dance, muscle memory helps me complete moves in the technically correct way (assuming the way I do them is technically correct, quite a leap! ), but the choice of move is always brain led.

    So when Timb talks about being in position X and knowing position Y is a good way to go, in my case, I think, it's the brain that decides and remember that, albeit sometimes subconciously. Muscle memory enables me to execute it correctly.

    Any improvisation more or less requires it's the brain that decides the move and not muscle memory... I would have thought.



    But don't quote me on any of that

  6. #6
    Registered User happygoldfish's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    on the window-sill again
    Posts
    189
    Rep Power
    9

    Thumbs up A Muscular Hero!

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    I find that muscle memory is a handicap in class. I am not convinced that conquering it is a good thing. I believe I should be able to dance without thinking too much about the details.

    Is "muscle memory" is a good thing?
    Could attending yet more classes with different variations be damaging my dance?
    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    I don't really know what muscle memory is.
    I think muscle memory is what enables you to tie your shoelaces, or your tie.

    Try doing it the other way round (right-over-left instead of left-over-right)!

    And it enables men to do complicated moves like the pretzel (imagine doing that the other way round ).

    (Of course, as Almost an Angel says, it can also apply to less complicated things, like a turn.)

    BigD's problem seems to be, not muscle memory, but … autopilot.

    Sometimes I walk along a street where I would normally turn left, but I've decided to carry staright on and go to a shop. When I reach the turning, no mental effort is required, since all I have to do is to keep walking. But my "autopilot" makes me turn!

    I think everyone does that … so don't worry about it!

    Turn it into a strength, BigD … you're not only helping beginners by joining in the beginners class, you're even putting them at their ease by getting things wrong!

    You're a hero!

  7. #7
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    130
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: Muscle memory, friend or foe?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    I find that muscle memory is a handicap in class. I am not convinced that conquering it is a good thing. I believe I should be able to dance without thinking too much about the details.

    Is "muscle memory" is a good thing?
    Could attending yet more classes with different variations be damaging my dance?

    I regularly join in the beginners class, and regularly find that I am not very good at it. Once the music starts part of my brain goes to sleep or drifts off to other concerns. The teacher says "catch right" but auto-pilot/ muscle memory switches in. I always use that move to change hands in freestyle, and I always catch left, and, too often, I find myself doing it wrong in class.
    I tried to do a simple Marc Foster intermediate class, which completely lacked "returns". No chance, during the lesson. Immediately after I was able to do the whole routine with returns with no problem whatsoever. That was one of the rare ocassions where I went through the class routine repeatedly during freestyle, and eventually managed to do it and make it look something like dancing.
    Muscle memory can be changed - doing it 3000 times approximately!! Muscle memory is a good thing in dance. It is not limiting in anyway. It actually helps you to perform the move as taught. Ballroom and Latin dancers, WCS and salsa dancers all use muscle memory. However, it requires training to perform the movement consistently to get the memory right or how you like it.
    Latin dancers learn to move their hips by the movement of their legs. Therefore the muscle memory to move the hips is created from the legs and not the hips.

  8. #8
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Cruden Bay (Aberde
    Posts
    7,053
    Rep Power
    13

    Re: A Muscular Hero!

    Quote Originally Posted by happygoldfish View Post
    I think muscle memory is what enables you to tie your shoelaces, or your tie.

    And it enables men to do complicated moves like the pretzel (imagine doing that the other way round ).
    Hmmm... I can (and do) the pretzel the other way round.

    I'm with TA Guy: I don't really know what it is. I think it's simply habbit. Do a sequence often enough and no matter where you are in a sequence, you automatically assume that the next part of the sequence will follow. It's called "anticipation" in followers and how leads end up with the same 'core' moves and micro-routines that they dance all the time.

    I think perhaps "muscle memory" is a bit more refined than that - if I lift a hand to lead a return, I am just thinking "return" not the direction to move, angle of the hand, distance from my partner, height of the hand, ... I assume that my 'muscle memory' takes care of all that. :shrug:

  9. #9
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    bedford
    Posts
    4,899
    Rep Power
    13

    Re: A Muscular Hero!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    Hmmm... I can (and do) the pretzel the other way round.

    I'm with TA Guy: I don't really know what it is. I think it's simply habbit. Do a sequence often enough and no matter where you are in a sequence, you automatically assume that the next part of the sequence will follow. It's called "anticipation" in followers and how leads end up with the same 'core' moves and micro-routines that they dance all the time.

    I think perhaps "muscle memory" is a bit more refined than that - if I lift a hand to lead a return, I am just thinking "return" not the direction to move, angle of the hand, distance from my partner, height of the hand, ... I assume that my 'muscle memory' takes care of all that. :shrug:
    The more times you do something the more habitual it gets. Obviously in footwork dances it is a major handicap to be thinking conciously about sequences and weight transfers. In freestyle I always use a move to change hand. Those moves and change hand have become habit. Last night I had the same old struggle in the beginners class where the hand change was simply that and it detracted from my ability to acquire the routine that I had to do a hand change as part of a return. Completely against my nature.
    Other times I have struggled with the so called yo-yo - something or other, because hearing Yo-Yo I try to do a Yo-Yo, and it is only the prequel that is required. I know habit handicaps my learning, but I was wodering if it if learning was handicapping my dancing. e.g. I start into a Yo-Yo and insted of it being effortless and my mind being free for higher purpose there is a little interjection in my brain saying "we've started a Yo-Yo, what now?".
    I suppose it is the equivalent of worrying too much and unecessarily about spelling and grammar, and the message suffering.

  10. #10
    Registered User happygoldfish's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    on the window-sill again
    Posts
    189
    Rep Power
    9

    Smile Re: A Muscular Hero!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    I don't really know what it is. I think it's simply habbit.
    So it's a combination of hobbity and fabbity?

    I think perhaps "muscle memory" is a bit more refined than that - if I lift a hand to lead a return, I am just thinking "return" not the direction to move, angle of the hand, distance from my partner, height of the hand, ... I assume that my 'muscle memory' takes care of all that. :shrug:


    Hmmm... I can (and do) the pretzel the other way round.
    Ah, but you can only do the pretzel the other way round because you can do the pretzel the other way round.

    My point is, that if (like me) you can't do the pretzel the other way round, then you won't be able to do the pretzel the other way round!

    I would have thought that was obvious!

  11. #11
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Posts
    601
    Rep Power
    11

    Re: Muscle memory, friend or foe?

    Muscle memory is pretty cool in performance... like when you're so nervous it's all a blur, and our body just seems to do it. Always find that amazing.
    So only need to do it 3000 times and we're sorted!

  12. #12
    Registered User Jhutch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Balham, S. London
    Posts
    855
    Rep Power
    9

    Re: Muscle memory, friend or foe?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    I find that muscle memory is a handicap in class. I am not convinced that conquering it is a good thing. I believe I should be able to dance without thinking too much about the details.

    Is "muscle memory" is a good thing?
    Could attending yet more classes with different variations be damaging my dance?

    I regularly join in the beginners class, and regularly find that I am not very good at it. Once the music starts part of my brain goes to sleep or drifts off to other concerns. The teacher says "catch right" but auto-pilot/ muscle memory switches in. I always use that move to change hands in freestyle, and I always catch left, and, too often, I find myself doing it wrong in class.
    I tried to do a simple Marc Foster intermediate class, which completely lacked "returns". No chance, during the lesson. Immediately after I was able to do the whole routine with returns with no problem whatsoever. That was one of the rare ocassions where I went through the class routine repeatedly during freestyle, and eventually managed to do it and make it look something like dancing.
    I suppose the answer depends on whether you want to learn new things or not? If you are happy with the moves you have and simply want to do those in freestyle and improve at those then i guess that doing moves that are similar but slightly different are not going to be that beneficial. However, i actually quite like it when i am taught moves that are slightly different to the way that i normally do them. I like to think that it is making me think in different ways and hopefully making me a better ceroccer

  13. #13
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    537
    Rep Power
    11

    Re: Muscle memory, friend or foe?

    I'm with timbp and Gadget as well. For me muscle memory is what lets me perform the movements that I choose without thinking about the finer points of technique. For instance, if my muscles remember what they need to do when I pivot anticlockwise on my right foot then I don't need to think about getting my weight in the right place, positioning my left foot, thinking "down" etc. etc.. It increases my options for movement rather than reducing them because it frees my brain and senses to focus on other things. Muscle memory moves a large number of "processes" into the realm of the subconscious.

    Getting into autopilot and falling into habits is a risk - I sometimes just kind of flow into a familiar pattern and find myself thinking "but that's not what I wanted to do" or "bloody hell, I always do that - boring!" My way of dancing is to try not to consciously choreograph the dance but to just "let it happen": I suffer from that awful phenomenon that means if you consciously try to hit a phrase or break you miss it by one beat. (Why is that? It's so frustrating. I normally get it right if I don't think). I'm reacting to my partner, the way I feel and the music and choosing movements that fit those things, a process which must involve conscious thought: but as soon as I concentrate on them, or a particular movement, it all goes pear shaped.

    Fortunately, most of the stuff that seems to be stored in my muscle memory banks relates to "elements of movement or lead" rather than "moves" themselves. That, I think, gives me much greater flexibility to alter "stock" movements like the pretzel or basket. To echo Gadget's example; muscle memory means I don't have to think about how to move my arm/hand/fingers to lead a double turn/return but if I don't decide to lead it then it doesn't get led.

    It's not just physical movement that seems to be stored though; I've been working on my musicality recently and have found that restricting myself to a very small range of movements and trying to use styling, timing and the way I make those movements to express the music seems to be giving me a greater range of "expression" that I can draw on instinctively. There's a long way to go on that road though!

    So, for my money, muscle memory is my friend.

  14. #14
    Fake ID to promote Lindsay's events Dorothy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Dunfermline
    Posts
    141
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: Muscle memory, friend or foe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lindsay View Post
    Muscle memory is pretty cool in performance... like when you're so nervous it's all a blur, and our body just seems to do it. Always find that amazing. So only need to do it 3000 times and we're sorted!

    I know that feeling, used to do jazz performances and had to learn long routines (going back a bit now)-it took a while for "muscle memory" to kick in, but once it was there, you could actually enjoy dancing it.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. declared size of phone memory card.
    By johnthehappyguy in forum Geeks' Corner
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 11th-March-2007, 07:58 PM
  2. Muscle strain
    By LMC in forum Chit Chat
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: 19th-February-2006, 12:28 PM
  3. To the Immortal Memory...
    By Heather in forum Chit Chat
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 27th-January-2006, 12:29 AM
  4. Being a good friend. Help!
    By Jazz_Shoes (Ash) in forum Chit Chat
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 26th-January-2006, 05:48 PM
  5. Memory aids
    By Cornish Pixie in forum Let's talk about dance
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 31st-January-2005, 02:49 PM

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •