View Poll Results: Is MJ a sport?

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Thread: Is MJ a sport?

  1. #41
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Is MJ a sport?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    You can compete at MJ, there are competitions so those who compete are enjoying a sport by anybody's definition.
    Not by mind, so maybe you need to redefine "anybody"

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Saying that doing a sport and not competing at it makes it a hobby rather than a sport is patently rubbish.
    Why? It's not patent to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Consider the sailing thing, you are bobbing about on the lake watching the ladies/hunks on the beach. Then one day you decide to impress the beach dwellers by entering a regatta - do you suddenly change what you do. Of course you don't, all you do is measure how well you do it against other sailors. How can it be a sport one day and a hobby the next?
    But surely that's exactly the point?

    I think that's one of the clear definitions of "sport" - it must be measurable. And MJ isn't.

    And I notice you still haven't answered my question...

  2. #42
    Registered User timbp's Avatar
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    Re: Is MJ a sport?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post


    That might sound ridiculous, but IMHO the "definition" of sport has become overloaded by groups that want to be considered a sport for various vested interests. The result is that the dictionary definitions don't remotely tally with how people use the word in the real world.

    As evidence, the poll results show a fairly strong consensus that MJ is not a sport, whatever the dictionary definition might say.
    As I write this, 8 people have voted in the poll; 7 say MJ is not a sport.
    Dictionaries (currently) follow a descriptive philosophy. They sample a huge amount of written english (much more than 8 people could ever write, or probably read), and then specify what the accepted spellings and usages are.

    So if MJ fits the dictionary definition of a sport I'm prepared to accept it is a sport, despite what 7 people might say.

  3. #43
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    Smile Re: Is MJ a sport?

    War is competitive. And it's good exercise.

    Is war a sport?

  4. #44
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    Re: Is MJ a sport?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    You can compete at MJ, there are competitions so those who compete are enjoying a sport by anybody's definition. And you can compete with yourself. You could go for endurance events. Stay up later at that weekender, for instance. Or you could go for a move you've never succeeded in doing.
    Well, that might be true if competitiveness was the only criteria to be a sport, but I think by way of Yoga, we've already mentioned it's not enough.

    Yes, people compete in dance, that doesn't make it a sport. Company executives compete for promotions, is that a sport ?

    Competitiveness is just one criteria.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Saying that doing a sport and not competing at it makes it a hobby rather than a sport is patently rubbish. Consider the sailing thing, you are bobbing about on the lake watching the ladies/hunks on the beach. Then one day you decide to impress the beach dwellers by entering a regatta - do you suddenly change what you do. Of course you don't, all you do is measure how well you do it against other sailors. How can it be a sport one day and a hobby the next?
    Why is it rubbish? I would argue it's perfectly possible for someone to start something as a hobby, messing around in boats for example, then get the bug and start to enter races whereupon it turns into a sport. Happens all the time.
    What makes sailing a sport is not ownership of a boat, otherwise all boat sellers would be sportsmen.
    What makes sailing a sport is not sitting in a boat, otherwise all cruise ship cooks would be sportman.
    What makes a sailor a sportsman is, amongst other things, the competing.

  5. #45
    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Is MJ a sport?

    It's like driving a car – that's not a sport until it is made into one by imposing rules on the spec of the car and how it is driven, and a method by which a winner is decided.

    It's like grass-cutting – that's not a sport until you establish rules about the method and equipment used to cut the grass, and a criteria by which the winner is decided. (Points awarded for speed, uniformity of length and aesthetics of the finished lawn.)

    It's like any activity which can be judged – it can become a sport once rules and criteria have been set.

    But just because an activity can be a sport, doesn't mean that the normal pursuit of the activity is sport.

    So if I drive home tonight and cut my grass, that does not make me a sportsman.

    Likewise, when I went out dancing last night I was not taking part in a sport.
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

  6. #46
    Registered User timbp's Avatar
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    Re: Is MJ a sport?

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    Likewise, when I went out dancing last night I was not taking part in a sport.
    But were any of the girls you danced with "good sports"?

  7. #47
    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Is MJ a sport?

    Quote Originally Posted by timbp View Post
    But were any of the girls you danced with "good sports"?
    Well they all let me dance with them, despite everything. Does that make them good sports?

    Anyway, here's a related question to the one at hand... Is singing a sport? I know that some people do it competitively...
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

  8. #48
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    Re: Is MJ a sport?

    Quote Originally Posted by timbp View Post
    But were any of the girls you danced with "good sports"?
    What: mutants?

    SpinDr

  9. #49
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    Re: Is MJ a sport?

    Quote Originally Posted by spindr View Post

    What: mutants?

    SpinDr
    Something to do with their jeans ? Products of spontaneous mutation I guess.

  10. #50
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    Re: Is MJ a sport?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    But there's a simple way to disprove this - simply name an activity which is clearly a sport, but which has no competitive element.

    So, any suggestions, Andy?
    Scuba diving.

  11. #51
    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Is MJ a sport?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Scuba diving.
    In scuba diving you are competing against nature and your own abilities – same with rock-climbing, and similar outdoor activities.

    I wouldn't call them sports myself, but I guess some people do.

    There is some doubt amongst scuba divers though...
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

  12. #52
    Registered User NZ Monkey's Avatar
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    Re: Is MJ a sport?

    Mwahahahahaha!

    Sowing chaos is soooooooo much fun some times

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy
    It's possible for something to be both a sport and hobby. But to be a sport, I'd say there has to be some competitive element, yes. Even if that competitive element is only against yourself, that still counts as a sport in my mind. If the dingy guy (is that you ? ) potters around the lake trying to beat his lap of yesterday, or he's practising for some day when he will race, I'd say he was taking part in sport. If he potters around the lake getting a sun tan drinking a Coberushi, eating a hotdog, reading Playboy magazine and eyeing the girls in their bikinis on the artificial beach, I'd say it was a hobby, nothing to do with sport.



    That pretty much sums up my feelings on the issue as well, and fit's well with Ducasi's grass-cutting analogy. Many (possibly even *any*) activities can contain both sporting and non-sporting aspects. I think many who disagree with the idea of MJ as a sport are just following a gut reaction to the idea that it could be without really thinking about what a sport really is.

    I can't remember who specified that a sport needed to have rules and citeria regarding the outcome and method of the activity, and stated that because the MJ rules are so few it can't be a sport. I'm at work and on a limited timeframe on my luchbreak...... Consider drag racing. This is a sport with the only rules being that you start at the same time as someone else and the winner is the one who crosses the finish line first. Compared to the Intermediate section at Blackpool that list of rules is pretty small.

    To those who consider a measurable result a requirement: Olympic gymnastic mat displays. These are a combination of gymnastic practices and dance and nobody seems to have an issue with this being included as a sport. They are measured on their musical interpretation rather than hard meters or seconds as well.

    If I were to go to a wrestling (one of the Greeks, and by extension ours, founding sports) class tonight the format may be arranged something like this:

    1) Cardiovascular training.
    I'm not competing with anyone. It's exercise, but is it sport?

    2) Technique Drills.
    This resembles wrestling, except that it's still non-competitive.

    3) Sparring
    This is competitive in the sense that two people are actively engaging in opposition to each other. The objective is to perfect technique is a pressure situation. No scores are kept and no winner announced at the end of the session. Students are encouraged to put themselves in bad situations to learn how to get out of them when it matters in proper competion.

    4) Crawl home after realising just how unfit I really am.

    With the exception of number 4 in that list, several posters would come to the conclusion that I wasn't participating in a sport at all during the entire evening. In fact, I can argue that the "normal" situation in any sport is in practice where many competitive results simply do not matter.

    Is a sportsman therefore someone who actively engages in a sport regularly, or someone who trains or engages in an activity closely resembling a sport?. If it's the former then I don't think there are many endurence athletes you could consider sportsmen.

  13. #53
    Registered User NZ Monkey's Avatar
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    Re: Is MJ a sport?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post

    You wouldn't expect "Heavyweight" to have different values in boxing competitions, for example.
    With the large number of governing bodies spread around the world, there almost certainly are different values for Heavyweights in boxing. Especially considering most of the world use Kg as a measure of weight while the USA at least uses lb.

    Without being deeply involved in the scene though it's just our perception or ignorance that suggests they must be the same everywhere.
    Last edited by NZ Monkey; 16th-August-2007 at 02:01 AM.

  14. #54
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Is MJ a sport?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Scuba diving.
    Nope, I don't agree that scuba diving is a sport. It's a hobby, an activity, or an interest, but not a sport.

    Next?

  15. #55
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Is MJ a sport?

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    With the large number of governing bodies spread around the world, there almost certainly are different values for Heavyweights in boxing. Especially considering most of the world use Kg as a measure of weight while the USA at least uses lb.
    Nope - there's a fairly common designation that heavyweight is for fighters who weigh over 200 pounds (14 st 4 lb, 90.72 kg). That's accepted by the IBF, the IBO, the WBA, the WBC and the WBO.

    Compare and contrast with the complete lack of consistent definition of (for example) "advanced dancer" in the major MJ competitions...

    In essence, MJ would only be a sport if we could actually say who's the best.

  16. #56
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    Re: Is MJ a sport?

    Semantics are dull.

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Compare and contrast with the complete lack of consistent definition of (for example) "advanced dancer" in the major MJ competitions...
    That's not a true comparison: the weight divisions are based on weight (duh) rather than skill or talent. The equivalent in dancing would be divisions based on age, for example.

  17. #57
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    Re: Is MJ a sport?

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    To those who consider a measurable result a requirement: Olympic gymnastic mat displays. These are a combination of gymnastic practices and dance and nobody seems to have an issue with this being included as a sport. They are measured on their musical interpretation rather than hard meters or seconds as well.
    Yah! I have an issue My second required criteria of a sport is that the result must be absolute.
    Crossing a finish line, scoring more goals, something like that.

    If the result isn't absolute, say in such hobbies as yoga, scuba diving, dancing, gymnastic mat displays, then to me it is not a sport.

    Ahem. The fact that gymnastic mats is in the Olympics doesn't make it a sport !!! Just means someone thinks gymnastic mats can earn a bit on the Tele! This is what I said about the definition of sport being corrupted for financial purposes earlier. Or if you want to be less cynical, it's the 'Olympic Games', not the 'Olympic Sports'. Perhaps gymnastic mats is a game?



    IMO.

  18. #58
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Is MJ a sport?

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    If the result isn't absolute, say in such hobbies as yoga, scuba diving, dancing, gymnastic mat displays, then to me it is not a sport.
    Yeah, I must admit, I wouldn't have thought of (for example) ballroom dancing as a sport 20 years ago - "performance sports" are much more of a grey area, because they have large elements of subjective judgements.

    But then, so does boxing - short of a knockout, the judgements are based on points awarded by judges. And indeed, other games with human refereeing (that is, almost all of them) have some elements of subjectivity - look at the debates over referee decisions in football matches, for example.

    So it's a bit more complex than it seems... But MJ still isn't close to being a sport.

  19. #59
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    Re: Is MJ a sport?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Yeah, I must admit, I wouldn't have thought of (for example) ballroom dancing as a sport 20 years ago - "performance sports" are much more of a grey area, because they have large elements of subjective judgements.

    But then, so does boxing - short of a knockout, the judgements are based on points awarded by judges. And indeed, other games with human refereeing (that is, almost all of them) have some elements of subjectivity - look at the debates over referee decisions in football matches, for example.

    So it's a bit more complex than it seems... But MJ still isn't close to being a sport.
    The difference between MJ and Ballroom (or Latin) is, IMHO, one of degree. There is a huge number of ballroom competitions and a lesser number of freestyle opportunities. In MJ there's hardly any competitions and loads of freestyle opportunities. To my mind they are both the same, just that the pie chart of competition/freestle is very different.

    And, yes, MH is right (have some grudging rep) it's all about semantics.

  20. #60
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    Re: Is MJ a sport?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Yeah, I must admit, I wouldn't have thought of (for example) ballroom dancing as a sport 20 years ago - "performance sports" are much more of a grey area, because they have large elements of subjective judgements.

    But then, so does boxing - short of a knockout, the judgements are based on points awarded by judges. And indeed, other games with human refereeing (that is, almost all of them) have some elements of subjectivity - look at the debates over referee decisions in football matches, for example.

    So it's a bit more complex than it seems... But MJ still isn't close to being a sport.
    Yeah, someone else mentioned the subjective rules thing earlier. That's why I changed it to subjective result.

    It's all very vague tho, I've never seen a definition of 'sport' that covers everything regarded as a sport, and excludes all those that are not regarded as a sport. It doesn't help that activities that are, or are not, regarded as sports tend to change over time.

    I guess that's why the dictionaries are so vague

    I don't regard Ballroom as a sport. In fact, no Ballroomy person I know regards it as a sport. They just think it's a con that's being pulled to get Ballroom into the Olympics.

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