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Thread: Fast music for competitions....

  1. #1
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    Fast music for competitions....

    Been meaning to post this for ages - since the Bristol competition, but also to include the Jive Masters too.

    In the Bristol competition, as in all previous years, we (I and anyone else who asked) were told that the fast track was there 'because fast is challenging'.

    In the 2 heats, and final at Bristol, Deb and I danced to first 'Objection' by Shakira, which is about 180bpm (Zoot Suit Riot is 184 for comparison purposes), and then 2 rock and roll tracks. In the Jive Masters, there is a fast section, where the slowest track you could get, is 'Wake me up before you go' by Wham or 'Safronia B' by the Coors at 160bpm, followed by the next slowest track at 170bpm. All of which are very fast (although at least in the Jive Masters you only have to dance them for 2 minutes, rather than the whole length of the song).

    My personal opinion is that fast isn't necessarily challenging in a dance way. It's challenging to see who's the fittest and fastest, but since most people usually just do simple moves in a 'smaller' style, when dancing fast, it doesn't really give anyone the opportunity to show off their dancing style - especially the rock and roll numbers.

    I'd prefer to see (hear, and dance to) tracks that are rhythmically and interpretively challenging, rather than something played, just because it's fast. Even though I do enjoy dancing to the fast stuff occasionally myself.

    Discuss

    Steve

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    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Fast music for competitions....

    Originally posted by TheTramp

    My personal opinion is that fast isn't necessarily challenging in a dance way. It's challenging to see who's the fittest and fastest, but since most people usually just do simple moves in a 'smaller' style, when dancing fast, it doesn't really give anyone the opportunity to show off their dancing style - especially the rock and roll numbers.
    Well ... never thought I'd end up agreeing to Tramp ( ) but there's always a first time.

    I could sit on the fence and gently offer a view .... but then again lets cut straight to the point...

    Ceroc have always intimated that the core range for Ceroc dance music is 120 - 140 BPM ... and they're right! You can probably Ceroc reasonably well up to about 155BPM ... but after that 99% of dancing is either swing, R&R or cr*p Modern Jive!! Dancing fast tends to lead to less interpretation, style and sophitsicated movement. If you want to dance fast ... great ... do Swing ... dont try to tell people that it brings out the best of Ceroc ...BEACUSE IT DOESN'T!:reallymad

    ........touch paper lit .... awaits fireworks etc. etc....

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    Re: Re: Fast music for competitions....

    Originally posted by Gus
    Well ... never thought I'd end up agreeing to Tramp ( ) but there's always a first time....[/i]
    Ack. I must have been wrong in whatever I posted

    Steve

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    Venue Manager Fran's Avatar
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    Re: Fast music for competitions....

    Originally posted by TheTramp
    My personal opinion is that fast isn't necessarily challenging in a dance way. It's challenging to see who's the fittest and fastest, but since most people usually just do simple moves in a 'smaller' style, when dancing fast, it doesn't really give anyone the opportunity to show off their dancing style - especially the rock and roll numbers.

    I'd prefer to see (hear, and dance to) tracks that are rhythmically and interpretively challenging, rather than something played, just because it's fast. Even though I do enjoy dancing to the fast stuff occasionally myself.

    Discuss

    Steve
    I agree 100% with you. Its definatley more funa nd more challeging dancing to music which is not simply a fast record all the time. If that was all that was played on a dance night, I would get board and stop going I think.
    also probebly need resusitaton aswell!!!

    fran.

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    I must admit to enjoying a good fast jive track, I attend clubs on the Rock'n'Roll scene, and they like their jivers fast. Up until a few months ago(pre Adams workshops ) I did not particularly enjoy dancing to slow music, but I now really do enjoy dancing to stuff like Tango in Harlem etc.
    I think that in competitions like Jive masters, the competitors are at a very high level, and should be able to dance to any pace of music, and still show a bit of style and interpretation. just because the music is fast, you don't have to dance every single beat. Maybe they should dance to three tracks.....a fast, a medium, and a slow....then everyone would be happy...or would they

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    Re: Re: Fast music for competitions....

    Originally posted by Gus
    If you want to dance fast ... great ... do Swing ...:reallymad
    From what I have seen of swing dance (have been on a few weekends down south) it is certainly not fast. The tracks and tempos you have mentioned are typically what a ceroc DJ would class as swing. Lots of swing is slower/medium tempos, but when you speed it up it looks awesome.

    Fast ceroc looks crap in my opinion, I agree with you on that one. Dance Demon's idea of different tempos in a competition is a good one.

  7. #7
    I have been known to play the occasional swing track!
    I also have every Shakira CD, but I agree with tramp, If asked to play any music at this speed I simply refuse.

    I learnt to dance on the Rock & Roll circuit so dont have a problem with fast music, but Ceroc/Leroc etc. Is a dance not suited to 180bpm, (the limit on my playlist is about 160bpm) perhaps the next step would be to play Salsa tracks to 'challenge' the dancers.

    We enter competitions because we are good at what we do and enjoy it - what is the benefit to anyone when our best dancers are made to look 'silly trying to dance to unsuitable music - At least the Jive masters competition warned everyone in advance.

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    I do think that having more than one track {each one different} is the best way to assess a dancer's ability, but I agree that fast-slow should not be the difference.

    How about "Old" and "Modern" ? or "Soulful" and "Livley" ? Something that will encourage the competitors to dance differently for each track instead of just dancing quicker/slower.

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    Personally I agree with DD.

    When I first started dancing ceroc, I always watched people dancing to the fast tracks and hoped that someday I would be able to do the same. My partner (FC) however, did her utmost to stop me, ensuring I'd got the basic's first before moving on to the quicker tunes. Once 'we had' decided I could dance the basic's, that's the point at which we started stepping up a gear.

    We are now at the point whereby we actually prefer dancing to quicker tracks, and yes, although it's harder to get some musical interpretation in to them, you still need as much concentration.

    Let's face it, if something like Zoot Suit Riot is played the dance floor suddenly empties... which I think is great as it gives my partner and I the chance to really go for it and try and make the best of the track and the space. (Not that we're 'going for it' to the point of being dangerous. Doing aerials on a party night.... now that's dangerous....and selfish... and.......)

    As far as competition is concerned I think throwing fast tracks in with slow ones is a great way of determining somebody's dancing ability, ie. Jive Masters. As it tests a couples 'all round' dancing ability.

    Am going now as my soap box is getting too high, not that that won't do me any harm as I'm a short a*se anyway.

    James.....

  10. #10
    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Jive Brummie
    As far as competition is concerned I think throwing fast tracks in with slow ones is a great way of determining somebody's dancing ability, ie. Jive Masters. As it tests a couples 'all round' dancing ability.
    One thing I think the organizers need to think about is whether the contest is a "test" or an "exhibition". Putting it strongly, is the emphasis on finding out a couple's limitations or their abilities?

    As a competitor, what I want to do is go out and put on a good performance that people enjoy watching. As a spectator, I want to see couples amazing me with their musical interpretation, style and moves. In neither case do I want the results decided by who "messes up least" when struggling to cope with music way outside the normal speed they dance to.

    There have been competitors in Jive Masters who haven't been able to stay on beat during the "fast" track. OK, that probably says something about their all-round dancing ability - but on the other hand it may also not say much about their "normal" dancing other than it doesn't work at 180bpm...

    Most of this applies to Bristol as well - the other point I'd make there is that a full slow track followed by a full 180bpm fast track is probably too much. There were a lot of people simply looking exhausted by half way through the fast track - again, not what I want to see in a dance competition.

    Dave

  11. #11
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    Originally posted by David Franklin
    Most of this applies to Bristol as well - the other point I'd make there is that a full slow track followed by a full 180bpm fast track is probably too much. There were a lot of people simply looking exhausted by half way through the fast track - again, not what I want to see in a dance competition.
    I resemble that comment!!

    Steve

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    Originally posted by TheTramp
    I resemble that comment!!

    Steve
    I think you look exhausted much sooner than that

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    Originally posted by David Franklin
    One thing I think the organizers need to think about is whether the contest is a "test" or an "exhibition". Putting it strongly, is the emphasis on finding out a couple's limitations or their abilities?

    As a competitor, what I want to do is go out and put on a good performance that people enjoy watching. As a spectator, I want to see couples amazing me with their musical interpretation, style and moves. In neither case do I want the results decided by who "messes up least" when struggling to cope with music way outside the normal speed they dance to.
    I think Dave has put it very well here.

    If all you are doing, is struggling to keep up to the beat, then you're not showing off your abilities to their best.

    When you dance fast, you dance 'small', and keep it simple. Hence, you lose a lot of the 'flashier' moves, and much of the style. Although, a lot of fast tracks (because they tend to be swing), do usually have room for interpretation (or maybe just a moment to try to get your breath back).

    As for the music itself. It's not what's normally played at a jive night. So, you're making people dance to things that they wouldn't normally dance to. Which isn't the best way to let them show off what they can do. As a DJ, I might get away with playing the occasional track at 160bpm+. But if I played a few in a freestyle, I'm sure that people would start to complain. Hence, what is happening in the competitions isn't representative of dancing modern jive.

    I'm all for a variety of tracks in competition. But if you're calling it a modern jive competition, then perhaps it should be kept to something more approximating what you'd hear at a modern jive night.

    Also, and this has cropped up before - on the Ceroc London board I think. While you will play different tracks across each heat in a round, it might be slightly fairer to have each slow/fast track at roughly the same speed.

    Steve

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    Originally posted by Andy McGregor
    I think you look exhausted much sooner than that
    Probably.

    Steve

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    Dave [/B][/QUOTE]
    There have been competitors in Jive Masters who haven't been able to stay on beat during the "fast" track. OK, that probably says something about their all-round dancing ability - but on the other hand it may also not say much about their "normal" dancing other than it doesn't work at 180bpm...
    Isn't this the entire point of competitions like the Jive Masters. People get to show both sides of their dancing ability in that they can be full of expression, pulling flashy moves and interpret the music as they see fit. Who determines that you have to dance fast to a fast track.....answer; nobody.....

    I personally enjoy being tested and challenged, which is why I enjoy competition, however soul destroying it can sometimes be. But, if we take this discussion in the context it's been put forward.... fast tracks in competition.... then how can the judges determine who is the 'best' dancer if you try and ignore the fact that fast tracks exist?

    I'm not suggesting, however, that fast tracks make up the core of any DJ's playlist as, yes, people would be exiting in their droves. I think that they are just a 'necessary evil'.



    As a competitor, what I want to do is go out and put on a good performance that people enjoy watching. As a spectator, I want to see couples amazing me with their musical interpretation, style and moves. In neither case do I want the results decided by who "messes up least" when struggling to cope with music way outside the normal speed they dance to.
    As a competitor, what I want to do is go out and have a good dance with my partner. If we're enjoying ourselves then it probably means that we're dancing well together, whatever the track. Yes Dave, I agree, I don't want to see people messing up either as you can't help but feel sorry for them. But, the fact that they are in a competition which requires them to dance fast should be enough impetus for them to either practice fast prior to the comp' or think of some other way to dance the fast ones, ie. slowly.

    I do disagree though Dave in that you suggest, that by dancing fast a couple may not look as amazing as they do when dancing slow. I've watched some couples dancing fast and thought how brilliant they have looked. Take Franck and Lorna at Perth in the Jive Masters. Who could deny that they looked fantastic in both their tracks and that Franck couldn't have possibly been more expressive. Yes it was fast, yes they were out of breath by the end but by no means did they dance 'small' or look to give it less effort or thought than their slow track.

    This in itself, in my opinion, is testament to the fact that they are both amazing dancers and fully deserved their place in the final in September.

    "TAXI......!!!"


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    Is dancing to fast music a test - of course it is. The good dancers are able to make enough compromises in their dancing to cope with the speed, and still interpret the music. However anything above 165 bpm (ie 'Reach' by S Club 7) is more of a test of stamina than anything else. And encouraging people to do aerials at these tempos starts getting dangerous.

    Dancing to slow music is also a test. How good is the dancers' control, how much variation can the put in, do they avoid looking like they're dancing in slow-motion? I don't think anyone has really tested this yet. 'Wade In The Water' (114 bpm) is slower than anything in the Jive Masters list, and I wouldn't call it particularly slow or challenging. It gets played at virtually every venue every night. 'Shackles' by Mary Mary (100 bpm) would be more of a test.

    My biggest problem with these extremes of tempos is that you are judging a Modern Jive competition when the music doesn't really suit Modern Jive. It is like trying to Foxtrot to a quickstep. Or Salsa to a Merangue. What is wrong with playing music that is the right speed for Modern Jive?

    David

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    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Jive Brummie
    Isn't this the entire point of competitions like the Jive Masters. People get to show both sides of their dancing ability in that they can be full of expression, pulling flashy moves and interpret the music as they see fit.
    James ... I'm afraid I have to disagree. If you follow that logic then you would start playing Salsa music or 3/4 time music to show who is the best dancer.... FAST music (say over 160 BPM) is NOT for Ceroc .... its no more part of what Ceroc is supposed to be than major aerials (OK ... openning up a can of worms again) How many of the true greats of Ceroc (Modern Jive) do you see regularly dancing at that speed ... usual only those who have more of a leaning to Swing.

    DaveB puts it so well, the better dancers are the ones trying to slow it down and show musical interpretation rather than frenetic aerobics to a frantic beat.

    By all means, may the dance floors have dancers enjoying Zoot Suit etc. .... but please may they be on Swing dancefloors not Ceroc ones!

    Personal view entirely, of course

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    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Originally posted by DavidB
    However anything above 165 bpm (ie 'Reach' by S Club 7) is more of a test of stamina than anything else. And encouraging people to do aerials at these tempos starts getting dangerous.
    One thing is that "how fast" a track is depends on more than the BPM. Nigel was quite surprised when I told him Tequilla was 179bpm; because of the phrasing, it doesn't feel like a really fast track. Whereas "I'm So Excited" has very little phrasing and feels blistering.

    I'm curious about the aerials comment though - for us, 180 bpm was too much for the more timing critical aerials, but Lindy and R'n'R are famous for their airsteps, and both go a lot faster than that. We assumed we should be able to do them if our technique was right...

    Dancing to slow music is also a test. How good is the dancers' control, how much variation can the put in, do they avoid looking like they're dancing in slow-motion? I don't think anyone has really tested this yet. 'Wade In The Water' (114 bpm) is slower than anything in the Jive Masters list, and I wouldn't call it particularly slow or challenging. It gets played at virtually every venue every night. 'Shackles' by Mary Mary (100 bpm) would be more of a test.

    My biggest problem with these extremes of tempos is that you are judging a Modern Jive competition when the music doesn't really suit Modern Jive. It is like trying to Foxtrot to a quickstep. Or Salsa to a Merangue. What is wrong with playing music that is the right speed for Modern Jive?
    Personally, I agree with you, but I suspect some would argue 180bpm is the right speed. (Or at least is not implausibly fast).

    A thought on tempos - my understanding is that "mainstream" WCS and Lindy in the US are both getting slower as people emphasise musical interpretation (Kyle/Sarah notwithstanding). I think this is happening in Modern Jive as well. More than one Jive Masters couple said - "As far as I'm concerned, the slow tracks are a bit fast!".

    Or maybe I'm just getting old and decrepid...

    Dave

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    Originally posted by David Franklin
    I'm curious about the aerials comment though - for us, 180 bpm was too much for the more timing critical aerials, but Lindy and R'n'R are famous for their airsteps, and both go a lot faster than that. We assumed we should be able to do them if our technique was right...
    It is not the actual aerials, but the dancing into and out of them. The man needs to be very stable before he starts lifting the lady, otherwise it can get dangerous. Other dance styles such as Lindy and Rock'n'Roll have advantages when dancing fast. At the end of every move you get 2 beats where there is not much motion - when you do the 'twist twist' in Lindy, or the rock step in ECS, or the kick-ball-change in Rock'n'Roll. That is enough time for the man to get settled. But if you try to take this 2 beat pause in Modern Jive, it looks like you've stopped dancing.

    And if people are finding the dancing physically tiring, it means you have less energy for the lift - so your control, timing and safety margin all suffer. It is hard work to move that fast doing Modern Jive. The basic movement of Modern Jive is based on walking, with the foot quite often flat on the floor. The basic movement of Rock'n'Roll (and I think Lindy) has more similarities with running, with the weight almost always on the toes, and a very bouncy action with the knees and ankles. When you move fast, it is more efficient (and less tiring) to run than it is to walk.

    David

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    Dosn't this all {again} come down to trying to define exactly what modern jive is and exactly how it should be danced?
    Competitions should reflect the "ideal", and competitors should be striving to reach the ever elusive "perfect dance(s)".

    Since MJ can be danced at almost any speed (within reason) and with so many different 'styles', the choice of track should be used in an attempt to 'level the playing field' ie make it easier for the judges to compare similar dancing rather than trying to decide whether couple A (fast and energetic) dance better than couple B (slow and sensual)
    IMHO all the tracks in a selected category should have a similar 'feel', no matter what the speed; musical interpritation{sp?} should be similar for the competitors, no matter what style or moves they use.

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