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Thread: Intromediates

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    Not a spoon! Lou's Avatar
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    Intromediates

    I've been going to a little-known, low key venue called Shenley, for a few weeks now. It's relatively new, and still quiet. The music's nothing special, but the people are very friendly - no hotshots. I like it.

    Anyway, 2 weeks ago, they changed from the usual Ceroc™ format to introduce a third class - the Intromediate level. So now the evening contains a beginners class of 3 moves, a 2 song mini-freestyle, an intromediate class of 3 moves (often variations on the beginner moves), another mini-freestyle, an Intermediate class of 3 moves, and freestyle to the end of the evening.

    I think this is a great change. A lot of the regular leaders struggle with a standard intermediate class, but they all dance the Intromediate class well, and add some nice new moves to their repertoire. I'm not sure the teacher is too fond of the changes, as it now means she has to prepare 3 routines! And the other downside is that the evening has to keep to a tight timescale, so if the first class starts late (which is not exactly unknown for MJ! ) or if anything over-runs, it has a massive impact on freestyle time.

    At the moment, it seems that Intromediates concentrates on new moves, but it would be a perfect opportunity to introduce musicality and technique to dancers, IMHO.

    The only other class that I've heard of that offers this is St Albans. Is this an idea that Adam's brought back from his trip abroad, or is it spreading throughout the country?

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Intromediates

    Quote Originally Posted by Lou View Post
    Anyway, 2 weeks ago, they changed from the usual Ceroc™ format to introduce a third class - the Intromediate level.
    Whilst I applaud the sentiment, what's with the made-up names?

    What'd be wrong with a standard division of:
    • Beginners
    • Intermediates
    • Advanced


    Or, if they're determined to have "intermediates" at the top level, you could have:
    • Beginners
    • Improvers
    • Intermediates


    Why come up with silly names?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lou View Post
    So now the evening contains a beginners class of 3 moves, a 2 song mini-freestyle, an intromediate class of 3 moves (often variations on the beginner moves), another mini-freestyle, an Intermediate class of 3 moves, and freestyle to the end of the evening.
    Out of interest, are the classes shorter than before, or does it take up more time?

    Also, I'd like to see a trend for less moves with more advanced classes - so you'd have 3 moves with beginners, 2 moves with "intromediates" and 1 move with intermediates. The emphasis could then be on quality not quantity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lou View Post
    The only other class that I've heard of that offers this is St Albans. Is this an idea that Adam's brought back from his trip abroad, or is it spreading throughout the country?
    Other (Ceroc) venues have done 3 classes, but they often do the third class simultaneously with the second.

    But yes, I think "intromediate" comes from Down Under...

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    Re: Intromediates

    I suggest

    Pigeon Level
    Eagle Level
    Swan Level


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    Registered User happygoldfish's Avatar
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    Smile Re: Intromediates

    I'd like the intromediate class to do one move, but with three variations.

    So the begrovers (is that the right word? ) would learn how to lead and follow.

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Why come up with silly names?
    I like "intromediates" … it's clear who it's for!

    And for people going in the other direction: "retromediates"!

    But if you don't like made-up words, how about …
    mezzanine!

    And then a class for dancers who think they look really good …
    penthouse!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    I suggest

    Pigeon Level
    Eagle Level
    Swan Level
    Erm … don't eagles eat pigeons?

  5. #5

    Re: Intromediates

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    ...But yes, I think "intromediate" comes from Down Under...
    Yep, sure does

    We have
    • beginners
    • intromediate
    • intermediate
    • extramediate

    ...and only just recently in Christchurch, advanced.... (but I haven't been to an advanced lesson yet so know nothing about what goes on there...and I've been told that Intermediate in Auckland = Advanced in Christchurch anyway so that doesn't help much either.)

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    Re: Intromediates

    Yes, I noticed this on the Ceroc Metro website, with Adam's interesting report on his recent trip over:

    Quote

    "This has been a great hit with beginners and the intro-mediate making the transition from beginners to intermediate far lees of a leap. In fact many dancers who have been cerocing for a while have appreciated the intro-mediate class where we teach many of the classic Ceroc moves."

    I have been thinking of going back to Shenley and seeing how it is now, as it is about 6 months since I last went - however, 3 lessons (in my experience of St. Albans is a lot to taken in - although just 3 moves makes it more digestible.........maybe 2 would be even better + some style tip each week).

    Hmmm - maybe I'll give it a go tonite..........

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    Re: Intromediates

    Like the term "intromediate" but not so keen on "extramediate"

    Sounds like a good idea tho.. let us know how it works out

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    Registered User happygoldfish's Avatar
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    Smile Intro is retro

    How about …
    caterpillar

    chrysalis

    butterfly!

    Seriously though …

    Intromediate class seems to be a return to the old days of Ceroc.

    The old intermediate class was much like the beginners class … four simple moves, most of them only slightly more difficult than the beginners moves.

    By contrast, each move in the present intermediate class is usually a combination of three or four components, each of which would have been a single move in the old intermediate class.

    Intermediate class moves have been getting more and more complicated.

    Paradoxically, a lot of Cerocers seem to think that, if they can do the intermediate class, then the teacher is bad , but if they can't do it, then the teacher is really good!

    So teachers prosper if they make the intermediate class unreasonably difficult, and compete with each other to do so!

    Intromediate class isn't a new concept … it's a very old concept with a new name.

    I hope it catches on (again) over here … the end of the hey-day of Ceroc (in London), with completely packed classes four days a week in the enormous Central Club, seems to have coincided roughly with the increase in difficulty of the intermediate class.

    An intromediate class which is easier for leaders (it makes very little difference to followers) should retain more leaders, which in turn should retain more followers, leading to a big expansion of numbers, and (I hope) the disappearance of the present intermediate class.

    Let's get back to basics!

    two caterpillars on a branch, as a butterfly flies past …
    happy: "i'd love to fly like that!"
    grouchy: "you'd never get me up in one of those!"

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    Re: Intro is retro

    Quote Originally Posted by happygoldfish View Post

    ..........interesting comments...........

    I hope it catches on (again) over here … the end of the hey-day of Ceroc (in London), with completely packed classes four days a week in the enormous Central Club, seems to have coincided roughly with the increase in difficulty of the intermediate class.

    An intromediate class which is easier for leaders (it makes very little difference to followers) should retain more leaders, which in turn should retain more followers, leading to a big expansion of numbers, and (I hope) the disappearance of the present intermediate class.
    Maybe the centre of gravity has moved from London: last week at the regular Thursday class at St. Albans (which is 3 lessons: Beginner, Improver (not (yet) termed Intro-mediate), Advanced) there were 220 people (and I wasn't even there).

    Are there other regular (ie non-freestyle) evenings which get over 200 people these days - in the middle of the holiday season?

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    Not a spoon! Lou's Avatar
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    Re: Intro is retro

    Quote Originally Posted by happygoldfish View Post
    An intromediate class which is easier for leaders (it makes very little difference to followers) should retain more leaders, which in turn should retain more followers, leading to a big expansion of numbers, and (I hope) the disappearance of the present intermediate class.
    That's a long-term view, though. Currently, the feeling amongst many followers is that they'd prefer the old class structure. That way, they get more freestyle time. However, they do say that they'd prefer better leaders - so hopefully they'll be prepared to sacrifice a bit of freestyle for improved quality of dancing in the long run...

    Hope to see you tonight, JiveLad - but bear in mind that the regular teacher is on her holidays for the next 2 weeks - so it may not be completely representative of recent Shenley.

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    Registered User Beowulf's Avatar
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    Re: Intromediates

    Quote Originally Posted by Lou View Post
    Anyway, 2 weeks ago, they changed from the usual Ceroc™ format to introduce a third class - the Intromediate level. So now the evening contains a beginners class of 3 moves, a 2 song mini-freestyle, an intromediate class of 3 moves (often variations on the beginner moves), another mini-freestyle, an Intermediate class of 3 moves, and freestyle to the end of the evening.
    I LIKE that idea !!

    I used to struggle with the intermediates class but was bored with the beginners classes.

    Who cares what it's called, Call the three levels, Fred Dibnah, Right Said Fred and Fred and Ginger for all I care. I like the idea and hope it takes on in other venues across the UK when I'm ready to come back dancing.

    This is a really cool idea IMHO.

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    Ceroc Franchisee & Teacher cerocmetro's Avatar
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    Re: Intromediates

    Quote Originally Posted by Lou View Post
    The only other class that I've heard of that offers this is St Albans. Is this an idea that Adam's brought back from his trip abroad, or is it spreading throughout the country?
    Hi Lou
    Well actually we have been trying it in Wellington NZ for a while now and it seems to work well. It took a bit of getting used to for the dancers and the teachers but it has had positive results in 2 aspects, i) the newbies are more comfortable at progressing especially after 8 weeks when they have to face moving up a class and ii) because there is a transition the newbies spend longer learning not just easy moves but also the basics such as lead and follow and other basic skills so by the time they get into the intermediate they are more comfortable and the regular intermediate dancers don't get their arms ripped out, (as much).


    We are trialling it at St Albans and Shenley and will bring it into Bishops Stortford when we open there in Jan. Shenely only runs a 3 move Beginners, (only in its 3rd week now). ST Albans still 4 although we may look at bringing this down to 3 as well.

    Why the name, well to call it beginners improvers or anything else with the word beginners in has a stigma attached of a beginner. This way people do feel they are advancing.

    We have found thatthe retention has improved. Is this good, I dont know venues can get too busy, look at ST Albans last week over 200, a week day during the holidays and the night before a freestyle in the same venue.

    Interestingly enough though the people at the freestyle were quite different from the people who went the night before to the class night. Maybe regular dancers are happy with the class night and then another breed just want to freestyle.

    Personally it is about time we revisited the structure of a ceroc night and we have the advantage of being able to try stuff over here in NZ and then bring what works to the UK.

    We have more new concepts but you will have to wait until my next trip back to see more of those.

    As I said, these are all experiments so your feedback is great good and bad, please just keep my website out of this. OH apart from the agony page, i must admit it does make for a good laugh. Ask Acid Agnes

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    Not a spoon! Lou's Avatar
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    Re: Intromediates

    Quote Originally Posted by cerocmetro View Post
    As I said, these are all experiments so your feedback is great good and bad, please just keep my website out of this. OH apart from the agony page, i must admit it does make for a good laugh. Ask Acid Agnes
    Hiya Adam. Well... went along for another peek last night. The lovely Dale was teaching, but it did highlight something that even teachers as experienced as him need to recognise. With the 3 class format, it's difficult to go into the level of detail that he did, and not have the classes over-run considerably. Unfortunately, he was further hampered by an overabundance of women, particularly in the beginners class - so moving on also took more time than usual. It got quite frustrating for the ladies. Because of this, it's going to take some persuading to the regular ladies that this is a good idea. But I agree with you - if they can just adjust to it, there should be some excellent results. I'll be back for more next week - and I think Dale's doing another stint!

    Did you go, Jivelad? I tried to keep an eye out for you - but I'm not sure what you look like.

    (And what was with the Shenley floor last night? 'Twas really sticky in places. )

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    Registered User Keefy's Avatar
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    Re: Intromediates

    If I can get home from w*rk at a reasonable time I'm going to try and get to St Albans this eve I like the sound of this Intromediate idea.

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Intromediates

    Quote Originally Posted by Keefy View Post
    If I can get home from w*rk at a reasonable time I'm going to try and get to St Albans this eve I like the sound of this Intromediate idea.
    St Albans was good, but I missed 90% of the class, and then I spent the last 10% practising a salsa move, so I didn't pay attention - how did it go?

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    Senior Member thainmaggiet's Avatar
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    Re: Intromediates

    Having just started intermediate class with my friend last week after nine weeks dancing, we would greatly appreciate this type of class as it seems such a jump from the beginners class to the next level!! I was absolutely hopeless at the class on Monday but fortunately was paired with very patient leads!! My friend however[who is a lot better than me!] received very negative comments from two male dancers and was actually thinking about packing it in!! please remember everyone has to learn and it is awful to be humiliated by p****s who are usually ownly good dancers in their own magic mirrors!!

    Thanks again to all the lovely leads who are so patient with us raw recruits!!

    p.s the really great leads are without fail the most gracious and isnt it strange when you dance with them you feel much more confident!!

    roll on intromediate classes in the north!!!
    THE ABILITY TO QUOTE IS A SERVICEABLE SUBSTITUTE FOR WIT!

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    Registered User Twirly's Avatar
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    Re: Intromediates

    Quote Originally Posted by thainmaggiet View Post
    it is awful to be humiliated by p****s who re usually ownly good dancers in their own magic mirrors!!


    Does anyone else ever wonder if these leads we hear so much about can actually only lead when they are dancing with follows they feel are good/they are used to? That if they actually have to lead someone with less/no experience, they fall apart and decide to criticise the follow to hide their own inadequacies?

    Quote Originally Posted by thainmaggiet View Post
    p.s the really great leads are without fail the most gracious and isnt it strange when you dance with them you feel much more confident!!
    again

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Intromediates

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    Does anyone else ever wonder if these leads we hear so much about can actually only lead when they are dancing with follows they feel are good/they are used to?
    Nope. I don't wonder, I know - that's exactly accurate.

    But to be fair, you get a similar attitude in some follows.

    The phrase "bloody intermediate dancers" springs to mind for some reason

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    Registered User Keefy's Avatar
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    Re: Intromediates

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    St Albans was good, but I missed 90% of the class, and then I spent the last 10% practising a salsa move, so I didn't pay attention - how did it go?
    Well... now that I've tried it I'm not that convinced! It was my first time at St Albans, a bit of a rush and something like an 80 mile round trip for me. Great venue with good access, a nice floor, a great bunch of people and a high standard of dancing. There was a stand-in teacher for the night (Joe?) and it was the first time that he had taught the three lesson format, IMHO he did a good job of it.

    The beginners was three moves, followed by a couple of tracks, then the intermediate three moves, another couple of tracks, then the advanced three moves. I did the beginners and intermediates, having seen the advanced preview I gave that a miss and went to the taxi review of the intermediates.

    For me the three lesson format just didn't "click". Both the beginners and intermediate classes felt rushed and in places a little superficial. This wasn't the fault of the teacher, it just felt like the whole thing was being skimped to fit into the three lesson format. OK, overall it's only one extra move in the evening (nine as opposed to the normal eight) but the three lesson format seems to restrict the time to cover those 9 moves. A lot of the early beginners did the intermediates, what didn't help was the "13 ladies on" and then "15 ladies on" route march of rotation!

    What was worth a very special mention was the Taxi review of the intermediate class That was very well attended, very well presented and very worthwhile for me - if anything better than the formal class.

    So overall - a mixed review. I am not convinced that there is any massive benefit to the three class format, what you gain in coverage you probably loose in depth. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with it, but nothing that is fundamentally right over and above the more common two lesson format either. What I did feel worked was the taxi review of the intermediate lesson, if it's those new intermediates that you're targeting with the three lesson format then there could be something that could be done in this area. That gulf between beginner and intermediate is huge, it's taken me a few months to bridge it. As a new intermediate you feel kind of abandoned away from the beginners taxi review and thrust into the much more difficult world of an intermediate class with no fall back if you don't quite get it.

    I enjoyed St Albans, I'd go again if I was in the area or for a special event. But the three lesson format in itself is not enough to lure me into the extra time and mileage that it entails for me.

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    Registered User Breaker's Avatar
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    Re: Intromediates

    As much as I agreed that beginners need help (and I do go out of my way to dance with beginners) but by increasing the number of lessons to 3 a night does impact on freestyle time. I go regularly to St Albans and generally it is at least 9:45pm before any freestyle starts, leaving just over the hour to dance your proverbial socks off! This in fact does not encourage the more experienced dancers to dance with the beginners, as time is limited!

    My main gripe with the format of Ceroc lessons is that they do not encourage dancers to continually progress. You get to the intermediate lesson; get comfortable with that standard and then what? Most intermediate lessons are now standard fare and no longer a challenge to me and my partner. But where does one go to continue to improve without travelling miles and miles on a weeknight?

    What I find generally when I rotated in both the beginners and intermediate lessons is that some of the leads generally find 4 moves far to many and get panicky about remembering them all , and some find the beginners lessons boring, but the jump to the next classes too frightening.
    So how about this as a suggestion for a lesson profile:
    Beginner’s: 3 moves and 1 improvers move (based on one of the beginners move) The teacher could announce the improvers move, stating that some will and some will not get this move.

    Intermediate: 2 intermediate moves, 1 intermediate improvers move and 1 advanced move.
    The teacher could announce the improvers move, stating that some will and some will not get this move, same for the more advanced move. Also intermediate level can have a go, there is no substitute for have a go to improve!


    A more advance class was undertaken at Stevenage one a month for a while at Stevenage - and quite a number of more capable dancers came along who would not normally go to Stevenage, which proves that there is a market out there for moves beyond the intermediate level!

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