Ceroc-the-dance?

[Lou]

Charles Forte invented the piano, and then Lamb Chop came along and said "look, you can just use the black notes!" and thereby invented chopsticks …

Don't you have to use the white notes to play Chopsticks?

(Michel Ange Lau invented Le Roc the dance. I think he had nothing to do with differently-spelt LeRoc the organisation.)

[Groundhog Day]There is no LeRoc-the-organisation.[/Groundhog Day]

There's the LeRoc Federation*, but I would say that Michel Gay & John Eastman are far more pivotal to that. Michel Gay brought Modern Jive to Bristol, and was responsible for the development of the Bristolian footwork (which, thanks to his students, is still taught in Bristol and also migrated to Australia & New Zealand to form the basis of their current footwork).

Personally, I think that the significant part that James Cronin added was nothing to do with the dance itself - it was his franchise model that was important. This meant that there was central control, consistency, and the opportunity for one organisation to expand nationwide.

*(Do I have to (yet again) add the whole shebang about LeRoc remaining a generic term, and that not all LeRoc organisations belong to the Federation, although many do?)

[happygoldfish]

Don't you have to use the white notes to play Chopsticks?

Oops! No wonder I could never eat rice with them …

so that's why your motto is …
"Not a spoon!"
… you're a chopsticks expert!

Yes, you're right … it's much easier with the white notes!

Thanks!

[Groundhog Day]There is no LeRoc-the-organisation.[/Groundhog Day]

Ooh, I don't accept that!

I still have a Le Roc calendar-and-fridge-magnet from 1995 headed simply "Le Roc", and ordinary calendars for 1991-1995 headed "Le Roc IS JIVE".

The "Le Roc" on all of them is a curly logo.

From 1995, the name seems to have changed to "Original Le Roc" or "Original Le Roc Club".

So I maintain that up to at least 1995, there was a (very small) organisation calling itself "Le Roc" and with its own business logo, running classes at Centre Charles Peguy or The Place (17 Duke's Road WC1) and Notre Dame Hall.

… Michel Gay brought Modern Jive to Bristol, and was responsible for the development of the Bristolian footwork (which, thanks to his students, is still taught in Bristol and also migrated to Australia & New Zealand to form the basis of their current footwork).

Gosh! … what is the Bristolian footwork?
(And is it pronounced "footwork'l"? )

Personally, I think that the significant part that James Cronin added was nothing to do with the dance itself - it was his franchise model that was important. This meant that there was central control, consistency, and the opportunity for one organisation to expand nationwide.

[bigdjiver]

...[Groundhog Day]There is no LeRoc-the-organisation.[/Groundhog Day]

There's the LeRoc Federation*, but I would say that Michel Gay & John Eastman are far more pivotal to that. Michel Gay brought Modern Jive to Bristol, and was responsible for the development of the Bristolian footwork (which, thanks to his students, is still taught in Bristol and also migrated to Australia & New Zealand to form the basis of their current footwork).

Personally, I think that the significant part that James Cronin added was nothing to do with the dance itself - it was his franchise model that was important. This meant that there was central control, consistency, and the opportunity for one organisation to expand nationwide.

*(Do I have to (yet again) add the whole shebang about LeRoc remaining a generic term, and that not all LeRoc organisations belong to the Federation, although many do?)

Is there a defined Leroc dance? i.e. is there a recognised book of moves / teachers manual as there is in Ceroc?

[Lou]

so that's why your motto is …
"Not a spoon!"
… you're a chopsticks expert!

You could be right. You were thinking of that tune that goes "diddle-om-pompom, diddle-om-pompom, diddle-om-pom, om-pom, om-pompom", weren't you? No idea what that's called!

I still have a Le Roc calendar-and-fridge-magnet from 1995 headed simply "Le Roc", and ordinary calendars for 1991-1995 headed "Le Roc IS JIVE".

That's cute. That'll be from MAL's original club I suppose? Lovely!

So I maintain that up to at least 1995, there was a (very small) organisation calling itself "Le Roc" and with its own business logo, running classes at Centre Charles Peguy or The Place (17 Duke's Road WC1) and Notre Dame Hall.

Sounds perfectly likely. Meanwhile, other founders of MJ were presumably spreading around the country.

The Ceroc Franchise was set up in 1991. Which, according to Afterfive was at the same time Michel Gay changed his Ceroc class name to Bristol LeRoc, and the LeRoc Federation was created. So there was certainly at least a Bristol LeRoc class, and presumably some others - hence the need for a Federation. And, maybe that led to the name change to "Original Le Roc" for the club you mention?

Gosh! … what is the Bristolian footwork?
(And is it pronounced "footwork'l"? )

I love the elegance of Bristol Footwork. For me, the lady's footwork highlights the MJ counts (not the beats, like, for example Andy McGregor's RLRLRLRL rules), with a few exceptions - leading to some people describing it as syncopated. But it isn't, really. One of the distinctive features is that the man generally steps back on his right foot, and the lady on her left (unless it's for a return, or similar "unwinding' step). There are a number of threads where I've described the First Move footwork as an example - but I've always found it difficult to write, and it's much easier to demonstrate in person. It does rely, though, on the man knowing the (actually quite simple) Bristolian rules, so as not to try to lead the lady onto the wrong foot, or to lead a move where she'll be "wrong-footed".

Is there a defined Leroc dance? i.e. is there a recognised book of moves / teachers manual as there is in Ceroc?

I don't think there could be a defined Leroc dance, as such, as there is no central organisation controlling it, as Ceroc™ HQ do. I remember that when I was thinking of going for accreditation for the LeRoc Federation a few years ago, there was a syllabus of beginner moves that formed the basis of the examination. I would imagine that the Federation have documented their LeRoc moves somewhere - but as not all LeRoc clubs are members of the Federation, and each have their own different moves, styles, ways of teaching, etc., so there won't be a LeRoc "Bible", in the way that you mean.

[Stuart M]

There's the LeRoc Federation*, but I would say that Michel Gay & John Eastman are far more pivotal to that.

I'm shocked, Lou, that a woman of your tastes would deign to be part of the Federation. Shocked, I say.

Mind you, prolonged exposure to Pylene-50 would explain a lot about Lerocers up here

[Lou]

I'm shocked, Lou, that a woman of your tastes would deign to be part of the Federation. Shocked, I say.

I was never a member of the Federation! Never! Too much real-life got in the way of my dancing in the last couple of years...

Mind you, prolonged exposure to Pylene-50 would explain a lot about Lerocers up here

And Bristol was in Avon, once....

[Stuart M]

And Bristol was in Avon, once....

Is this slash, or the start of a Morris dancing song?

Please don't say both...

[Gadget]

Does it really matter what the origins were?

There have been a few folk who have been changing the basic "Ceroc" model to provide support and training for people who have now learned 'ceroc-the-dance' and are still looking to improve themselves. In the past they would move away to other dance forms. Now they stay longer and learn more. This is good for 'ceroc-the-company' because it gives the impression to the people who enter the doors that they can progress and become good dancers within the company's branding. More people come through the doors, the standard of dancing is greater, the retention rate is higher, they make more money, they can provide more for the dancers,... and so it goes.*


{*in a pink, fluffy world without any greed, corruption or nastyness }

[David Bailey]

Does it really matter what the origins were?

Well, kind of... because it helps to explain the comewhat-confused situation we have now, where even Ceroc don't clearly name the dance style they teach - which was the original point of the thread, after all. And the posts on this thread has helped clarify things for me, at least.

But does it "matter"? Not really, but does anything?

[Andy McGregor]

But does it "matter"?

And what is "it"?

[happygoldfish]

And what is "it"?

You've either got "it", or you haven't!

If you haven't got "it", we can't help you!

It was just one of those things!

[Andy McGregor]

You've either got "it", or you haven't!

If you haven't got "it", we can't help you!

It was just one of those things!

How do we know we're talking about the same "it"?

[David Bailey]

How do we know we're talking about the same "it"?

You're it.

[happygoldfish]

You're it.

If Andy is it, then does he matter?

One look and I yelled timber
Watch out for flying glass.
Cause the ceiling fell in and the bottom fell out
I went into a spin and I started to shout
I've been hit,
This is it, this is it, this is it.

[Gadget]

Well, kind of... because it helps to explain the comewhat-confused situation we have now, where even Ceroc don't clearly name the dance style they teach~

But they do: "Ceroc". The bit with specific rules, boundaries and a clearer Right and Wrong is defined as Ceroc-the-dance. The Ceroc-X competition is dancing Ceroc-the-dance... But that's not all Ceroc-the-company teach in a ceroc class.

[David Bailey]

But they do: "Ceroc".

Where (do they define this)?

The bit with specific rules, boundaries and a clearer Right and Wrong is defined as Ceroc-the-dance.

The Move Book, you mean?

The Ceroc-X competition is dancing Ceroc-the-dance...

Ceroc X is a subset of the Ceroc dance moves, is all.

[MartinHarper]

Category Rules

"The dance must be recognisable as a modern jive like Ceroc"

Corollary: Ceroc is a modern jive.

[Gadget]

The Move Book, you mean?

No, not the bible. The beginner moves. The eleven (I think) core moves. This is what defines ceroc-the-dance. The moves beyond this are examples of how you can use these core moves to dance MJ.

The Ceroc-X is a sub-set of MJ moves, but Ceroc have drawn a ring around this sub-set and said in a George Washington accent These moves are our constitutional right to perform. We shall take these moves and call them our own and teach them to the masses. And this dance shall be called Ceroc.

{IMHO of course }

[David Bailey]

Category Rules

"The dance must be recognisable as a modern jive like Ceroc"

Corollary: Ceroc is a modern jive.

Yep, that's one piece of evidence - although properly speaking it should be taken from here, as the Midlands rules are a direct cut-and-=paste of the Champs rules.

But it's still distinctly ambiguous in most other places.

[bigdjiver]

If I were asked to describe what business Ceroc-the-business was in I would say "Event organisation and marketing", and that is what I what I would expect them to be aiming to be number 1 in doing. For the moment I would be content to see them specialising in dance events.
I would think Ceroc-the-business would be an asset in teaching other dance forms, I would suspect that Ceroc-the-dance might be a liability in doing that, at the moment. If some Ceroc WCS dancers start winning championships the whole balance would change, and C.T,D would benefit.

Events like the weekenders and the Champs show that C.T.B. has made considerable progress in major event organisation, though I suspect it has a long way to go. I think C.T.B. needs a clear long term marketing strategy set out soon, if one is not already in place.