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Thread: Don't mention the war

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    Papa Smurf
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    Don't mention the war

    Now I'm as patriotic as the next man. Proud to be Scottish etcetera..

    and although I do believe a memorial for the fallen is a just and honorable thing, I think there has to be a reasonable limit on these things

    I just read in my local paper about a new memorial for the Battle of Falkirk - see here ...lovely idea but it was put up on the 709th anniversary. Is 700 years a bit much, or is it just me ?

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Don't mention the war

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Is 700 years a bit much, or is it just me ?
    Nope, it's just you.

    An integral part of any vaguely tribal identity in the UK is celebration and recrimination over events that happened a ridiculously long time ago. For example, look at the completely missplaced fuss over Oliver Cromwell's Irish excursions in the 17th Century.

    So you're obviously not a Real Scot.

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    Re: Don't mention the war

    yeah but a few hundred years is ok - you can easily follow some historical effect of said "excursions" to the present day.

    I am made entirely from haggis.

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    Re: Don't mention the war

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    I just read in my local paper about a new memorial for the Battle of Falkirk - see here ...lovely idea but it was put up on the 709th anniversary. Is 700 years a bit much, or is it just me ?
    Anyway, what about the Second Battle of Falkirk? Y'know, the last Jacobite victory of the '45?

    These Falkirker/Falkirkonians/Bairns/Falkies (what IS the collective term?) - they'll do anything to bag the tourist dollar, I tells'ya...

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Don't mention the war

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    yeah but a few hundred years is ok
    OK, so what's your cut-off date then? 350 years is OK, but 700 isn't? How about 525? 526?

    Personally, my cut-off point is 75 years - after that, you should pretty much forget about it for most things. So we can stop talking about WW2 in 13 years' time

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    you can easily follow some historical effect of said "excursions" to the present day.
    I guess, in the sense that this was one of the first uses of effective political spin, I guess...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    I am made entirely from haggis.
    That's way more information than I needed.

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    Re: Don't mention the war

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    OK, so what's your cut-off date then? 350 years is OK, but 700 isn't? How about 525? 526?
    I thought I made it clear tango-boy - the cut off is when there is no accurate historical effect of said battle ...oh and less than 6 people who can trace themselves back to ancestors of the time who took part.

    As SM says, there was a much more recent Battle of Falkirk, why not memorate (is that a word) both of them at the same time.

    and yes, the term for people from Falkirk is "bairn".

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    Re: Don't mention the war

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    OK, so what's your cut-off date then? 350 years is OK, but 700 isn't? How about 525? 526?

    Personally, my cut-off point is 75 years - after that, you should pretty much forget about it for most things. So we can stop talking about WW2 in 13 years' time
    I think expressing cutoff purely in terms of time is way too simplistic. The recent anniversaries of the Somme and Passchendale have been far more significant IMO than, say, the Falklands. And whilst you're probably just having a laugh, I would sincerely hope people don't stop talking about WWII, from Nanking through Dunkirk via Barbarossa and Auschwitz to Hiroshima (noticed today's date, DJ?) in 13 years' time...

    Actually, there was a semi-serious side to my earlier jokey post. Not many folk even know there was a Second Battle of Falkirk, and that's the way it always will be. As an individual historical event, it was less significant than the first one, which itself was less important than, say, Bannockburn. I'd say erecting this memorial is as far as commemorating Falkirk I needs to go, and it probably won't go much further.

    Of course, DJ, you have experience of an area where the celebration/denial of certain historical events is way out of proportion to the events themselves. But I wouldn't say all history is bunk on that basis.

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    Registered User stewart38's Avatar
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    Re: Don't mention the war

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    yeah but a few hundred years is ok - you can easily follow some historical effect of said "excursions" to the present day.

    I am made entirely from haggis.
    If Kenny Rogers can turn up and sing cant be all that bad ?

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    Re: Don't mention the war

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    I am made entirely from haggis.
    I know for a fact that this is not true DS - I saw you eating first chicken then cheesecake the other week!

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    Re: Don't mention the war

    Quote Originally Posted by Aleks View Post
    I know for a fact that this is not true DS - I saw you eating first chicken then cheesecake the other week!
    are you plugging your own cheesecake on the forum

    ...got any more ?

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    Re: Don't mention the war

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    are you plugging your own cheesecake on the forum

    ...got any more ?
    Nope and nope (but it can be arranged ).

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Don't mention the war

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    I thought I made it clear tango-boy - the cut off is when there is no accurate historical effect of said battle
    Wassat mean then?

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    Re: Don't mention the war

    i dunno - i lost track after "cheesecake"

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Don't mention the war

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart M View Post
    I think expressing cutoff purely in terms of time is way too simplistic. The recent anniversaries of the Somme and Passchendale have been far more significant IMO than, say, the Falklands.
    Mmmm. Dunno about that. Somme and Passchendale weren't massively significant in terms of history - if they hadn't happened, other large and pointless battles in WW1 no doubt would have. Obviously WW1 was massively significant, but I wouldn't say specific individual battles were. Whereas the outcome of the Falklands war had clear and immediate political implications in the UK (Thatcherism), Argentina (democracy), and more subtly in the Cold War etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart M View Post
    And whilst you're probably just having a laugh, I would sincerely hope people don't stop talking about WWII, from Nanking through Dunkirk via Barbarossa and Auschwitz to Hiroshima (noticed today's date, DJ?) in 13 years' time...
    Well, by "talking about it", I mean "taking it personally" - it's like nutty Irish people who keep on whingeing to me about "The Genocide" (the Potato Famine of 160 years ago) as if it was my personal fault or something...

    We should study history - but it's history. It's in the past. We shouldn't carry grudges. Peace, maaaan....

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart M View Post
    Of course, DJ, you have experience of an area where the celebration/denial of certain historical events is way out of proportion to the events themselves.
    Indeed. I assume you're referring to the legends surrounding The Birth Of Modern Jive?

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    Re: Don't mention the war

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Mmmm. Dunno about that. Somme and Passchendale weren't massively significant in terms of history - if they hadn't happened, other large and pointless battles in WW1 no doubt would have. Obviously WW1 was massively significant, but I wouldn't say specific individual battles were. Whereas the outcome of the Falklands war had clear and immediate political implications in the UK (Thatcherism), Argentina (democracy), and more subtly in the Cold War etc.
    Well, the monstrous, staggering pointlessness of them is the main point, really, isn't it? The most powerful joke in Blackadder Goes Forth, was the one about the "map" of the land captured yesterday - at one-to-one scale.
    I really don't think, 60 years from now, the Falklands will be remembered in the same way that these older conflicts are remembered now. The Falklands will be bracketed alongside other post-imperial spasms, like Suez or Algeria.
    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Well, by "talking about it", I mean "taking it personally" - it's like nutty Irish people who keep on whingeing to me about "The Genocide" (the Potato Famine of 160 years ago) as if it was my personal fault or something...
    Indeed, let's not confuse "talking about it" with "taking it personally". Sadly, it's on the latter point that opinions vary wildly, and become an entire new reservoir for conflict.
    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Indeed. I assume you're referring to the legends surrounding The Birth Of Modern Jive?
    I have a mental image now, of an elderly bearded DJ, kicking back in his rocking chair with a brandy, looking down at the adoring grandchildren and saying "You know, duwin' the worr"...

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    Re: Don't mention the war

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart M View Post
    I really don't think, 60 years from now, the Falklands will be remembered in the same way that these older conflicts are remembered now. The Falklands will be bracketed alongside other post-imperial spasms, like Suez or Algeria.

    A few hundred died in the Falkands , a few million in WW1 or WW2 so not rocket science
    Last edited by David Bailey; 6th-August-2007 at 02:21 PM. Reason: Fixed quotes

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    Re: Don't mention the war

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    I thought I made it clear tango-boy
    Tee-hee-hee...

    Another unsuccessful attempt to rep you.

    I think the rules ought to be modified - I think that you should be able to rep anyone if a week has passed since you last repped them, whether you've repped anyone else in between or not.

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Don't mention the war

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart M View Post
    Well, the monstrous, staggering pointlessness of them is the main point, really, isn't it? The most powerful joke in Blackadder Goes Forth, was the one about the "map" of the land captured yesterday - at one-to-one scale.
    Whilst I agree they were both monstrously awful events, in human-catastrophe terms, I don't think they were historically more significant than the Falklands.

    Within wars, some battles are significant, in that a different outcome could conceivably have affected the entire war - for example, in WW2, Stalingrad, Battle of the Atlantic, or Battle of Midway. But some aren't - e.g. Kursk, the Nazis had already lost by then.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart M View Post
    I really don't think, 60 years from now, the Falklands will be remembered in the same way that these older conflicts are remembered now. The Falklands will be bracketed alongside other post-imperial spasms, like Suez or Algeria.
    We'll check back in 60 years time then

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart M View Post
    I have a mental image now, of an elderly bearded DJ, kicking back in his rocking chair with a brandy, looking down at the adoring grandchildren and saying "You know, duwin' the worr"...
    Sounds good to me.

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Don't mention the war

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    A few hundred died in the Falkands , a few million in WW1 or WW2 so not rocket science
    Stuart M was talking about specific battles, not the wars themselves I believe.

    Obviously, WW1 / 2 were far more significant than any other conflicts in the 20th century.

    Although, again, I still reckon the Le Roc / Ceroc wars will be, historically, far more significant. Call me crazy on that one.

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    Re: Don't mention the war

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    We'll check back in 60 years time then
    You'll be senile by then ... going by the content of most of your posts, you're on that slippery slope already

    (as for StuartM he already calls himself "Geraldine Fitz-Warbler" and wears lampshades and clogs to Tescos)


    My alien crustacean friends say I'm fine.

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