Harry Potter slowcoaches

[Barry Shnikov]

scenes #2:
The tracking device we had secretly placed in his pocket, shows he has dangerously lept from a window into a flat bed track passing beneath. He's an unfit academic who does that sort of thing everyday so lets run after ..the tracking device...er...him.

Yes, Maguffins. Things that distract you so that you don't notice the plot holes. Any reasonably intelligent person would proceed on the basis that a tracking system may very well give unreliable information. But characters in fiction never do.

The biggest plot hole ever was in Die Hard 2 (particularly noticeable since the original had been so tightly plotted).

Question: why didn't someone in Dulles use a mobile phone or even a landline to call the control tower in Philly, or Baltimore, or better still ATC local, and get them to radio the endangered aircraft?

[Dreadful Scathe]

When Harry Potter's having a problem I'm more likely to think "Wave the stick, Harry. And get a move on!" and go and make a pot of tea...

I do see your point. Part of the problem could be I don't read enough "proper" books Apart from "Oliver", "The Way of all Flesh" and "The Jungle Book" (!) most of my recent books have been fantasy/sci-fi. Though I am reading a non-fiction book just now where I get a mention; "social parasite" I get called. Bit harsh. Thats women for you

I did attempt "Crime and Punishment" but misplaced it...I promise I'll find it again...

Oo, and I remember reading a hil-arious pastiche called 'Bored of the Rings', and crying with laughter. But all these years later I could regurgitate the plot and characters of LOTR at the drop of a hat but I don't remember a thing about the pastiche..

Indeed. I've still got that book, its not bad. Goodgulf the wizard is a very angry old man in it if i remember right The book came out in the 80's and there was also a computer game that came out about the same time.., i remember playing it (it was actually written with an adventure game builder i used too). Its all preserved here to allow you another 10mins of procrastination.....

[Barry Shnikov]

I do see your point. Part of the problem could be I don't read enough "proper" books Apart from "Oliver", "The Way of all Flesh" and "The Jungle Book" (!) most of my recent books have been fantasy/sci-fi.

Um...I know a musical called Oliver! I suspect the book to which you refer is Oliver Twist.

OK. Barry's Top Ten 'Easy-to-read' classics.

1. Lord of the flies - William Golding
2. Great expectations - C Dickens
3. Pride and prejudice - Jane Austen
4. Robinson Crusoe - Daniel - um - Defoe (phew, couldn't remember his name for a mo')
5. The Great Gatsby - F Scott Fitzgerald
6. Far from the madding crowd - Thomas Hardy
7. David Copperfield - (although it's long) C Dickens again
8. Of mice and men - John Steinbeck
9. Brideshead revisited - Evelyn Waugh
10. The history of Mr Polly - H G Wells

I'd love to put The life and opinions of Tristram Shandy by Lawrence Sterne but the language may interfere with enjoyment, more so than with Robinson Crusoe.

Books to steer clear of:
Ulysses
Finnegan's Wake
Clarissa
Sons and lovers
The brothers Karamazov
Les miserables
Cancer Ward
Everything by Henry James (o, well, The turn of the screw is OK but then it's a short story)

[Dreadful Scathe]

Um...I know a musical called Oliver! I suspect the book to which you refer is Oliver Twist.

Indeed , thought of plot - Oliver Reed in film came into head - wrote name of film

OK. Barry's Top Ten 'Easy-to-read' classics.

1. Lord of the flies - William Golding
2. Great expectations - C Dickens
3. Pride and prejudice - Jane Austen
4. Robinson Crusoe - Daniel - um - Defoe (phew, couldn't remember his name for a mo')
5. The Great Gatsby - F Scott Fitzgerald
6. Far from the madding crowd - Thomas Hardy
7. David Copperfield - (although it's long) C Dickens again
8. Of mice and men - John Steinbeck
9. Brideshead revisited - Evelyn Waugh
10. The history of Mr Polly - H G Wells

noted - I'll start asap

just thought of other classics I've read in last year or so - "the time machine","do androids dream of electric sheep" (of course it is ) and LOTR for the 6th time.

I'm not impressed by my feeble attempts either - I don't read as much as I'd like to be honest, and I'm an "average speed" reader too...

[whitetiger1518]

JKR is a stylish writer, and the books are tightly plotted but the fantasy element, for me, really gets in the way of engaging with the characters. Plus, you hardly ever get the slightest deviation from the Harry-centric viewpoint, which makes it very difficult to have an adult response to the situations.

Barry did you like Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, James and the Giant Peach, or Matilda as a boy?? You can't really Not have Roald Dahl as a Children's Classic can you? Unless you put him in a class of his own as there is plenty of fantasy in all of his novels? Roald Dahl wrote for adults too - though of course more famous for his children's work.

I have never read Dan Brown's "Da Vinci Code" and I didn't see the film either - I did read (as part of my now defunct bookclub) Angels and Demons - which I ate in 1 sitting of 6hours - I couldn't stop before the end, at midnight, because I would have got nightmares - read in daylight if possible

I haven't seen the film of Schindler's List* - but I have read Thomas Keneally's Schindler's Ark (the book was renamed after the film went out) Twice - it is scary, horrible but superbly written and a compulsive read!

*I can censor some of the imagery in my mind, which I can't do if I have seen it on screen*

Whitetiger

[Beowulf]

OK. Barry's Top Ten 'Easy-to-read' classics.

This is where I do my Frog impersonation

1. Lord of the flies - William Golding - Read it
2. Great expectations - C Dickens - Read it
3. Pride and prejudice - Jane Austen - Read it
4. Robinson Crusoe - Daniel Defoe - Read it
5. The Great Gatsby - F Scott Fitzgerald - Read it
6. Far from the madding crowd - Thomas Hardy - HAVEN'T Read it
7. David Copperfield - (although it's long) C Dickens again - Read it
8. Of mice and men - John Steinbeck - Read it
9. Brideshead revisited - Evelyn Waugh - HAVEN'T Read it
10. The history of Mr Polly - H G Wells - Read it

I read through most of Dickens, and Wells stuff in School. Loved The Time Machine, War of the Worlds and Shape of things to come., His short story "The Crystal Egg" is quite easy to read and an interesting story too and "The Man Who Could Work Miracles" is very amusing.

[Barry Shnikov]

just thought of other classics I've read in last year or so - "the time machine","do androids dream of electric sheep" (of course it is ) and LOTR for the 6th time.

There's classics and classics.

Ever read any James Tiptree jr? Best s-f writer ever. Robert Silverberg wrote a forward to a James Tiptree Jr short story collection, rubbishing the rumours that JT Jr was a girly, and casting aspersions on all those who spread the rumour, pointing out the ineluctable masculinity not only of the stories, but also the writing style!

By the time he came to write the foreword to the next collection, he had received a letter from a little old lady called Alice Sheldon who gently told him that she was, in fact, James Tiptree jr...Waiter! Large helping of humble pie, if you please!

In Houston, houston, do you read? astronauts c.1990 slip through a time warp and return to an earth where women have dispensed with the need for men - with men altogether, actually. However, the gene pool is weakening and they desperately need the astronauts to land so they can become - er - stud males. Will our heroes realise the horrible fate that awaits them...

Classic s-f? 1984, Brave new world, The forever war, Protector, Footfall, The mote in god's eye [hey Bar! a bit too much Larry Niven, ya think?], Lord of Light, The Ophiuchi hotline, The man in the high castle, A canticle for Liebowitz, The left hand of god...I'll think of more.

[Dreadful Scathe]

There's classics and classics.

Very true, but too many - and not enough time to read them.

Ever read any James Tiptree jr? Best s-f writer ever.

I have now. I think the best writers can write both sexes and animals, aliens, inanimate objects and the like well enough that there is no way for the reader to be sure.

In Houston, houston, do you read? astronauts c.1990 slip through a time warp and return to an earth where women have dispensed with the need for men - with men altogether, actually. However, the gene pool is weakening and they desperately need the astronauts to land so they can become - er - stud males. Will our heroes realise the horrible fate that awaits them...

Reminds me of the boy and his talking dog film that starred Don Johnson - he was most disappointed that the actual act of sex wasn't required i remember.

Classic s-f? 1984, Brave new world, The forever war, Protector, Footfall, The mote in god's eye [hey Bar! a bit too much Larry Niven, ya think?], Lord of Light, The Ophiuchi hotline, The man in the high castle, A canticle for Liebowitz, The left hand of god...I'll think of more.

I would suggest Asimov, Julian May, Arthur C.Clarke, William Gibson as classics and others I cant think of right now. Not read any of yours except for 1984

[Barry Shnikov]

Reminds me of the boy and his talking dog film that starred Don Johnson - he was most disappointed that the actual act of sex wasn't required i remember.

A dog and his boy, story by Harlan Ellison. See also I have no mouth but I must scream, Jeffty is Five, Shatterday

I would suggest Asimov, Julian May, Arthur C.Clarke, William Gibson as classics and others I cant think of right now. Not read any of yours except for 1984

Asimov - ah yes, the Foundation trilogy. The robot stuff is just Agatha Christie for geeks.
Arthur C Clarke - Rendezovous with Rama (should never have written the sequels) and what was the other one about balloon life forms on Saturn?
William Gibson - never took to him.

Details:
Brave new world - Aldous Huxley - a must read, the title has passed into legend

The forever war - Joe Haldeman (vietnam vet) galactic war with time dilation

Protector - Larry Niven - the absolute giant of hard s-f - mankind is actually the larval stage of a phenomenally warlike species from light years away - guess who's popping over for a visit?

Footfall - Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle - what all Hollywood s-f disaster movies ought to be, if Hollywood studios actually had brains - an alien species almost conquers earth in a measly 24 hours. Almost.

The mote in god's eye - Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle - first contact - what exactly is it that the eager-to-trade aliens are trying so desperately to hide?

Lord of Light - Roger Zelazny - bored ultra-evolved/ultra-tech humans take on the mantle of the Hindu pantheon

The Ophiuchi hotline - John Varley - from the direction of Ophiuchi comes an EM signal with information which propels homo sapien through centuries of technical advances in a few months. What - you thought it was all for free?

The man in the high castle - Philip K Dick - in a parallel world where the Nazis were victorious, an s-f writer imagines a world where the Nazis were defeated...

A canticle for Liebowitz - Walter M Miller - in a post nuclear holocaust world, monks scribbling in carels preserve 20th century knowledge in the same way that medieval monks preserved classical knowledge - copying manuscripts, but a little learning is a dangerous thing.

The left hand of god - Ursula K Leguin - an alien anthropologist is trapped over winter with an alien from the planet he studies - but is it a he? or a she? or something else.

[Barry Shnikov]

For Beo - have you read Larry Niven's The legacy of Heorot?

[Barry Shnikov]

I have now. I think the best writers can write both sexes and animals, aliens, inanimate objects and the like well enough that there is no way for the reader to be sure.

Yup. And that's pretty much what Robert Silverberg said, and he credited Alice Sheldon for teaching him the lesson.

[straycat]

Asimov - ah yes, the Foundation trilogy. The robot stuff is just Agatha Christie for geeks.

etc

I used to enjoy Asimov and Clarke as a kid. Gibson - Neuromancer & Count Zero were amazing - not so keen on the others.

Forever War - never really saw what the fuss was about.

Protector - I liked a lot - the Known Space series were favourites of mine way back when. Footfall, I though was disappointing. Not so the More in God's Eye, which I loved.

Zelazny - not read Lord of Light, but enjoyed the first amber series, and loved Eye of Cat and especially This Immortal.

The Ophiuchi hotline was fun.

Others along the SF line....
Dan Simmonds and the first two Hyperion books, I found astounding. Ilium and its sequel were also very good.

Neal Stephenson - Snow Crash!!! And Cryptonomicon.

Alfred Bester - Tiger Tiger.

Ian M Banks - Use of Weapons and Player of Games

Michael Coney - Cat Karina, The Celestial Steam Locomotive and Gods of the Greataway

[Beowulf]

For Beo - have you read Larry Niven's The legacy of Heorot?

The Grendels were cool and a morality tale of bringing an alien species into another ecology.. I Love Nivens books.. And not only because of his Frequent hero Beowulf Schaeffer (just another reason Why I chose the name, although he's shortened to Bey and I'm Beo

Those series (Flatlander, Neutron Star et al) and the Gil (Gilbert Gilgamesh) Hamilton series too

[straycat]

The Grendels were cool and a morality tale of bringing an alien species into another ecology.. I Love Nivens books.. And not only because of his Frequent hero Beowulf Schaeffer (just another reason Why I chose the name, although he's shortened to Bey and I'm Beo

Those series (Flatlander, Neutron Star et al) and the Gil (Gilbert Gilgamesh) Hamilton series too

Oddly enough, Bey was probably my favourite Niven hero.

Even more so than his 'son' (kind of son, anyway)

SC
PS - Beo - have you seen there's a Robert Zemekis film about you now?

[Barry Shnikov]

Alfred Bester - Tiger Tiger.

O man, wasn't that great? I had forgotten about it.

Some of Zelazny's other work is very different from the Amber chronicles which were, really, sword and sorcery rather than s-f. Read The doors of his face, the lamps of his mouth?

Oh, and I think it was Zelazny who wrote A dog and his boy and not Harlan Ellison.

Just bethought me of more - Philip Jose Farmer, the Riverworld series
Piers Anthony - Macroscope; also the Fighting circle trilogy
Keith Roberts - Pavane

You didn't like Footfall? Shame, I thought it made all the others in the genre - Independence day - look like the work of incompetent fools. Going back to the gaping plot holes - not only is the alien computer system completely compatible with MS-DOS, but they haven't got any way of independently controlling the attack ships when the mother ship is disabled...sheesh

[straycat]

O man, wasn't that great? I had forgotten about it.

Some of Zelazny's other work is very different from the Amber chronicles which were, really, sword and sorcery rather than s-f. Read The doors of his face, the lamps of his mouth?

Fair enough - they were. They were also fluff, but a lot of fun.
I think I've read doors of his face, but it would have been a long time ago, and I forget.

Just bethought me of more - Philip Jose Farmer, the Riverworld series
Piers Anthony - Macroscope; also the Fighting circle trilogy
Keith Roberts - Pavane

Riverworld - yeah - they were great.
Piers Anthony - I read a couple of the Xanth novels, and I think that put me off him. Keith Roberts, yes - enjoyed Pavane, also loved Kiteworld. Which... brings us to more classics: John Wyndham (Day of the Triffids, Midwich Cuckoos etc. My absolute favourite being the Chrysalids, which is in essence The Midwich Cuckoos in reverse)

Oh - and if you liked Pavane, have you read John Crowley's The Deep? Amazing, beautiful book. Depressing though.

You didn't like Footfall?

No - but it could be partly because I'd just read Lucifer's Hammer, which has a lot of similarities (Footfall, if I recall correctly, was what they pitched originally, but the publishers made them remove the invasion part, so they ended up with Hammer. Then they went back and wrote the novel they originally meant to write, hence Footfall)
Another reason is that I've been a little spoiled by C J Cherryh's take on aliens. Most authors write aliens that seem pretty much like human beings in motivation - the differences tend to be cultural, and my memory of the Footfall aliens is a bit like that. Some of Cherryh's aliens, on the other hand, are just wonderfully bizarre in the way they think and act - while some are very like humans, others are just incomprehensible.

For another take on the whole asteroid thing, read C J Cherry's Hammerfall. That's a lot of fun.

Shame, I thought it made all the others in the genre - Independence day - look like the work of incompetent fools.

Well - face it - Independence Day didn't need Footfall to make it look like that. As far as I was concerned, the only consistently good things about that film were Mssrs Goldblum & Smith (and, very briefly, Brent Spinner) Even Mars Attacks had a better plot (ok - so maybe that's a slight exaggeration)

More...
If you liked The Forever War, I'm assuming you've read Starship Troopers. Of Heinlein's books, my own two personal must-reads are that and The Moon is a Harsh Mistress.
Oh - and his so-so Space Cadet sticks in my mind as the first time I ever came across the concept of a mobile phone. My reaction: "Yeah - right - as if that'll ever catch on." Visionary Straycat strikes again

[whitetiger1518]

There's classics and classics.

Ever read any James Tiptree jr? Best s-f writer ever. Robert Silverberg wrote a forward to a James Tiptree Jr short story collection, rubbishing the rumours that JT Jr was a girly, and casting aspersions on all those who spread the rumour, pointing out the ineluctable masculinity not only of the stories, but also the writing style!

By the time he came to write the foreword to the next collection, he had received a letter from a little old lady called Alice Sheldon who gently told him that she was, in fact, James Tiptree jr...Waiter! Large helping of humble pie, if you please!

A few of the Classics have been written under opposite sex pseudonyms...

The Bronte sisters were first published under the names of Currer, Ellis and Acton Bell and George Eliot was the pen name of Mary Ann Evans.

Any more examples? I'm sure there are loads.

Whitetiger

[Barry Shnikov]

Fair enough - they were. They were also fluff, but a lot of fun.

I enjoyed them. Reread recently when I found a one-volume edition in Barnes & Noble in LA, and started reading in the queues at LAX. Doors of his face was about beast fishing on Venus - but it's a love story too...
John Wyndham - read when I was bout 11, 12, and haven't really stuck with me. I should have another go, I suppose...

Oh - and if you liked Pavane, have you read John Crowley's The Deep? Amazing, beautiful book. Depressing though.

Pavane was a work of genius. I have seldom read a more evocative book - one which, while you read it, you find your mind straying off down countless paths and daydreaming about things the book just touches in passing - superb.
I don't think I've read The deep, but I've read Little, big and Engine summer, and I liked them a lot.
I don't think I read Lucifer's Hammer, the theme is too hackneyed. But I'm surpised by what you say about the aliens in Footfall, one of my pleasures is wallowing in the well-created herd society which causes so many problems for the Fithp.

For another take on the whole asteroid thing, read C J Cherry's Hammerfall. That's a lot of fun.

Will do.

Well - face it - Independence Day didn't need Footfall to make it look like that.

Sadly, too true.

As far as I was concerned, the only consistently good things about that film were Mssrs Goldblum

Yeah, love Jeff in everything.
Oo, one of my favourite bloopers is in ID - JG has a tantrum and boots a load of furniture about. A rubbish bin goes tumbling and written clearly in a circle on the bottom it says 'PROPS'!!!

If you liked The Forever War, I'm assuming you've read Starship Troopers. Of Heinlein's books, my own two personal must-reads are that and The Moon is a Harsh Mistress.

Yeah. Read 'em both. Starship troopers is seminal - the 'mother ship/drop ship' in Aliens is a direct lift, as are the troop ships in Star Wars epI. Heinlein also wrote Waldo which was lifted for the cargo moving mechs in Aliens.
Forever war is like Golding's earlier books, each of which takes an earlier story for a starting point. (Lord of the flies evolved from RM Ballantyne's The coral island.)
FE re-tells ST incorporating time dilation: every time the warriers return - first from training, and then from battles - the dilation from light speed travel takes them further and further from their original time and culture until they have nothing in common with earth. Then the last time they return, humans have evolved into a 'hive mind' species - just like the bugs they have been battling for the whole of their lives. The futility of it is tangible. Given that Haldeman was a vietnam vet, the book is in my view one of the best books about the vietnam war - it can be seen as an allegory. It's that sort of thing that makes me cross when people dismiss s-f as a sort of childish diversion from 'real' literature.

[straycat]

We seem to have strayed a bit off-topic. Any need for a thread-split?

John Wyndham - read when I was bout 11, 12, and haven't really stuck with me. I should have another go, I suppose...

They were good. He was unusual when compared to many of the early SF authors, as his main focus was always on people, rather than the SF aspects to his books - he seemed especially fascinated with what changes would occur in people when their societies were threatened or fell apart entirely, and his conclusions generally weren't comforting.

Pavane was a work of genius. I have seldom read a more evocative book - one which, while you read it, you find your mind straying off down countless paths and daydreaming about things the book just touches in passing - superb.

I must reread that one - it's been a long time since I've read it. Did you ever read his Kiteworld? It had a lot in common with Pavane.

I don't think I've read The deep, but I've read Little, big and Engine summer, and I liked them a lot.

Loved Little, Big - not read Engine Summer, but I'll seek that out. The Deep was his first novel, and very short when compared to things like Little, Big.

I don't think I read Lucifer's Hammer, the theme is too hackneyed. But I'm surpised by what you say about the aliens in Footfall, one of my pleasures is wallowing in the well-created herd society which causes so many problems for the Fithp.

Maybe it's one I should go back to. As I say, I was a bit asteroided out at that point...

Yeah. Read 'em both. Starship troopers is seminal - the 'mother ship/drop ship' in Aliens is a direct lift, as are the troop ships in Star Wars epI. Heinlein also wrote Waldo which was lifted for the cargo moving mechs in Aliens.

Dropships... yes, for pickup, although deployment in ST was a bit different. Reputedly, when Cameron heard that Paul Verhoeven was making ST, his comment was 'Why? I've already made it!'. Which suggests that he missed the point of the book almost as much as Verhoeven did.

Forever war

is like Golding's earlier books, each of which takes an earlier story for a starting point. (Lord of the flies evolved from RM Ballantyne's The coral island.)
...

OK - you've convinced me. I'll revisit it - it was a long LONG time ago that I read this (over 20 years) - be interesting to see what I make of it this time around. iirc, 2000AD lifted a lot of aspects of the book in the third part of their wonderful Ballad of Halo Jones...

It's that sort of thing that makes me cross when people dismiss s-f as a sort of childish diversion from 'real' literature.

Mind you - anyone who's ever picked up one of E E 'Doc' Smith's books could almost be forgiven for that assumption

Just point them at Dan Simmonds - Hyperion, with a side-order of Ilium. That should convince anyone... phenomenal books, the pair of them.

[Beowulf]

anyone who's ever picked up one of E E 'Doc' Smith's books could almost be forgiven for that assumption

Wasn't the Lensman Series made into a Japanese Manga / Anime?

I hate to say.. I do actually own a couple.