Smoking and Dancing don't mix

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Dan Hudson
The Charlton venue has always been a smoking venue, The Tramp paid us a visit some months back and commented on the smoke. I don't believe in banning smoking as this is discrimination to smokers ( please note I am a non smoker).

Discrimination comes in many forms. The most obvious is a sign on the door that says that a certain type of person is denied entry - for example 'NO DISABLED' or 'NO WOMEN' or even 'NO SCOTTISH'. These groups have no choice but to be what they are. The Tramp has no choice but to be asthmatic. If he breathes smoke he risks an asthma attack - you really need to signpost your smoking dance hall - NO ENTRY TO PERSONS WITH CHEST CONDITIONS. This is because there are many like him and there is a huge death rate from these attacks every year - you wouldn't want to risk people unknowingly entering an area that put their health at risk. To expect the Tramp and other asthmatics to dance in a smoky room is discriminating as your actions mean that he can not attend. To ask smokers to smoke in a different room is not discriminatory, they can still come in and dance, they can still smoke, they just need to go out of the room to do it - this sounds eminently sensible to me. If you had a sign that said 'NO SMOKERS' that WOULD be discriminatory but I'm not proposing you do that.

Originally posted by azande
Only if you assume that the other 70% have the same opinion as Andy, and that is not true, otherwise there would only be smokers at that venue.

There are only smokers at that venue. The difference between them is that some are buying and lighting their cigarettes - the others are smoking them once thieir smoke has been released into the room - but the are all smokers even if they don't think they are.

Originally posted by Tazmanian Devil
at the end of the day there will always be smokers around and if smoking is banned from peoples regular venues then they will just go dance else where wont they. Carla

This is something we agree on 100%. I'm suggesting that people 'dance elsewhere' for the sake of their health. And if your dance class continues to allow smoking I'm suggesting that people 'dance elsewhere'.

[azande]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
There are only smokers at that venue. The difference between them is that some are buying and lighting their cigarettes - the others are smoking them once thieir smoke has been released into the room - but the are all smokers even if they don't think they are.

OK Andy, you win!

[azande]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
There are only smokers at that venue. The difference between them is that some are buying and lighting their cigarettes - the others are smoking them once thieir smoke has been released into the room - but the are all smokers even if they don't think they are.

And they are all smokers of their own free will, just like me.

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by azande
OK Andy, you win!

You're just being easy on me because it's my birthday. I'm 47 today and I feel the need to live for another 47 years without smoking - my own or other people's

Originally posted by azande
And they are all smokers of their own free will, just like me.

If smokers had a completely free will many of them would have given up. But they can't because they are addicted and they became addicted at a time before the evidence was available that would have prevented them from starting smoking in the first place.

But the passive smokers could have been misled if they read this thread. They've been told on this very forum that the smoking venue is just as smoky as the non-smoking venue. How can this be true as the non-smoking venue must have NO smoke at all Therefore the smoking venue must have no smoke. If this is true nobody is smoking in the smoking venue and a ban would make no difference to the smokers as they are obviously already going outside.

Where a ban would make a difference in to the confidence of us non-smokers. We would be able to go to the venue in the knowledge that we wouldn't be putting our health at risk if an inconsiderate smoker decided to light up next to the dance floor.

And while on this inconsiderate smoker theme I'm asking people to consider this. Azande is a considerate smoker, he goes outside the dance hall to smoke even if he doesn't have to. That's really nice and makes him a nice person. If smoking was banned in all venues it wouldn't affect considerate smokers like Azande as they're already doing what they would do in a venue where smoking wasn't allowed to mix with dancing.

Conversely, inconsiderate smokers puff away at the side of the dance floor without a thought for the damage they're inflicting on other people in the room. Worse than that, they get all shirty when they're asked to stop. They think they're taking the moral high ground when they stop going to the venue and ask their friends to do the same - as has happened at Dartford on Thursdays. Those smokers are being immoral, selfish, inconsiderate and rude. They are not all smokers, they are probably a minority, but they create enough of a health hazard on their own and I also believe they do the smokers lobby great harm. These self-centred smokers do not deserve our sympathy and they do not deserve the support of venue owners.

[Tazmanian Devil]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe


Its the discrimination part that was the point - i dont think banning smokers would be discrimination as, just like violence, it is something inflicted on others who may not welcome it. Totally different from real discrimination such as banning short people, or people with blue skin .

Excellent comment on the blue skin I like it! I apologize for taking your text out of context :sorry There are many fantastic dancers that are smokers as im sure you are aware. If smoking was totally banned from dancing all together then dance holidays like Camber wouldn't get as much business and the smokers would more than likely start up their own venues. Some of you out there might think this is good but it wouldn't be good for the actual runners of the dance venues as they would be the ones missing out on the business.




Remember Roy Castle ? Does the fact that it takes a while to be affected alter the seriousness of it in anyway?

Yes I remember Roy Castle (Record Breakers) and I do understand your point from a non- smokers point of view but there are many non- smokers that really don't mind if you smoke or not. I have never had someone refuse to dance with me because im a smoker. Do you refuse to dance with someone just because they are a smoker?

[Tazmanian Devil]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
This is something we agree on 100%. I'm suggesting that people 'dance elsewhere' for the sake of their health. And if your dance class continues to allow smoking I'm suggesting that people 'dance elsewhere'.

As Dan said in his statement the smokers at Charlton tend to smoke at the bar or out side which is what I do. There is alot of non-smokers at Charlton on a wednesday and a sunday and they don't seem too bothered if we smoke or not. Do you Drink alcohol? Don't mean to seem sarcie but that can kill you to. I tend to find with most venues that I go to the smokers don't actually smoke that much anyway as they are to busy dancing. I am a very heavy smoker but when I'm out dancing I will only smoke 3-4 cigarettes the whole night and even then I am putting them out practically as soon as I light them as someone pulls me up for a dance.

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by Tazmanian Devil
If smoking was totally banned from dancing all together then dance holidays like Camber wouldn't get as much business

I doubt that the smokers would stop going to quality events purely because of a smoking ban in the venue itself, there would always be places to smoke. Sour grapes wouldnt do them any good in the long term, theres no argument from anyone that says smoke from cigarettes is in any way good for you, so its pretty inevitable that it will be banned more and more.

I just noticed i managed to mention banning smokers instead of banning smoking in my last post - thats not what i meant of course - you couldnt ban someone just because they smoke but you can, and arguably should, ban the action of smoking. No one bothered to pick me up on that either - does anyone read my posts .

Originally posted by Tazmanian Devil

Yes I remember Roy Castle (Record Breakers) and I do understand your point from a non- smokers point of view but there are many non- smokers that really don't mind if you smoke or not.

Its still not doing them any good though, wether they like it or not. These are the same people that dont complain in restaurants when they get terrible service and even still give a tip . I must admit Im generally one of them - being pretty laid back I rarely get annoyed and would be one of the last to complain (although in the case of a dance venue i would assume everyone else was happy with the situation and find another venue).

Originally posted by Tazmanian Devil

I have never had someone refuse to dance with me because im a smoker. Do you refuse to dance with someone just because they are a smoker?

As i said above, it was a slip of the typing fingers that caused me to type about banning smokers and not just smoking. I would only not dance with someone if they were actually holding a cigarette when they asked me to dance . Being a smoker wouldnt bother me, i just may choose not to kiss them afterwards. I make a point of snogging partners occasionaly you see .

[Tazmanian Devil]

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
I would only not dance with someone if they were actually holding a cigarette when they asked me to dance . Being a smoker wouldnt bother me, i just may choose not to kiss them afterwards. I make a point of snogging partners occasionaly you see .

When i'm actully smoking a cigarette i wouldn't ask someone for a dance to be honest with you which is why I tend to smoke at the bar or out side. Although in saying that as I stated to Andy nine times out of ten when I come off the dance floor to cool off and light up a fag someone asks me back onto the dance floor for a dance so I put it straight back out again.

[Claire]

Originally posted by Tazmanian Devil
when I'm out dancing I will only smoke 3-4 cigarettes the whole night

3 to 4 Carla?
3 to 4???

Now I'm sure you had more than that last night..... at least "6" by my reckoning...... ohhhhhhh but of course that wasn't cigarettes now was it?

he he he he he

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Tazmanian Devil
If smoking was totally banned from dancing all together then dance holidays like Camber wouldn't get as much business and the smokers would more than likely start up their own venues.

Ummm. But Camber has a non-smoking policy now in the actual dance halls, and has done for a couple of years. If you want to smoke, you have to go outside, or to a room allocated for smokers. Which is exactly the point that people are trying to make? It's always handy when people destroy their own arguements!!

Oh. And yes, I don't drink either. Track 17 off 'Antics In The Forbidden Zone' applies I believe

Steve

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Tazmanian Devil
Yes I remember Roy Castle (Record Breakers) and I do understand your point from a non- smokers point of view but there are many non- smokers that really don't mind if you smoke or not. [/B]

There aren't that many who don't mind. There's 9.52% of all dancers who don't mind smoky dance floors according to the poll a the top of this page. That's less than one in ten dancers. And you must bear in mind that's all dancers, not non-smoking dancers. I do not know the point of view of non-smokers because I've not asked them the question in a non-leading way. How does the Tasmanian Devil know with such confidence what the view of non-smokers is

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
I just noticed i managed to mention banning smokers instead of banning smoking in my last post - thats not what i meant of course - you couldnt ban someone just because they smoke but you can, and arguably should, ban the action of smoking. No one bothered to pick me up on that either - does anyone read my posts .

As you can see from the bit below, I had noticed that people were talking about banning smokers rather than smoking. I just wasn't naming names

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
To ask smokers to smoke in a different room is not discriminatory, they can still come in and dance, they can still smoke, they just need to go out of the room to do it - this sounds eminently sensible to me. If you had a sign that said 'NO SMOKERS' that WOULD be discriminatory but I'm not proposing you do that.

I think this thread is now working. Smokers and organisers who put profit before the health of their cusomers are now contributing to the debate - I'd just like to see a better quality of argument from the smoking lobby. Here is a recent argument which came up;

Originally posted by Tazmanian Devil
Do you Drink alcohol? Don't mean to seem sarcie but that can kill you to.

I thought we'd dealt with this earlier but to repeat myself I will explain the difference. When you drink you take a personal risk, it is yours to take and so long as you don't drive while under the influence the risk to health is yours and yours alone - your drinking does not put others in danger of disease. When you smoke in company you are putting those around you at risk - and they haven't chosen to take that risk, you have chosen to put their health at risk because you as a smoker are selfish or ignorant.

I must add that most smokers are considerate of the health of others - but some are not and the above message is for them. If they think it is rude or confrontational they should remember that my saying it does their health no damage whatsoever. And if they take notice of the message behind it our overall health in the world of Ceroc will be improved - which is nice

[Tazmanian Devil]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Andy McGregor
There aren't that many who don't mind. There's 9.52% of all dancers who don't mind smoky dance floors according to the poll a the top of this page. That's less than one in ten dancers. And you must bear in mind that's all dancers, not non-smoking dancers. I do not know the point of view of non-smokers because I've not asked them the question in a non-leading way. How does the Tasmanian Devil know with such confidence what the view of non-smokers is

I am only going by the non-smokers at the venues that I dance in which have never complained about the smoking to myself or any of my other dance friends. As I stated earliere alot of the non-smoking people that I have danced with in the passed and new beginners have no problem asking me for a dance even when I am standing either at the bar or out side having a cigarette. and as far as the polls go not every body that goes to ceroc venues is on this forum are they, even alot of very experienced dancers have never heard of it or are not connected to the internet, so it's not exactly the majority of dancers now is it.

[Tazmanian Devil]

Originally posted by Claire
3 to 4 Carla?
3 to 4???

Now I'm sure you had more than that last night..... at least "6" by my reckoning...... ohhhhhhh but of course that wasn't cigarettes now was it?

he he he he he

No hunny That was 6 dances with the hottest non-smoking man at Charlton and don't you worry I am planning to top that next week.
All that up close and personal with ******* don't half get ya hot under the collar

Oh and im sure you had at least 3 dances with that certain hot man!!

[Tazmanian Devil]

Originally posted by TheTramp
Ummm. But Camber has a non-smoking policy now in the actual dance halls, and has done for a couple of years. If you want to smoke, you have to go outside, or to a room allocated for smokers. Which is exactly the point that people are trying to make? It's always handy when people destroy their own arguements!!

Oh. And yes, I don't drink either. Track 17 off 'Antics In The Forbidden Zone' applies I believe

Steve

Ok I know Camber has a no smoking policy in the Halls but they haven't banned smoking they have simply designated a specific place for it and as I stated only a couple of times before I usually smoke at the bar or outside not smack bang in the middle of the dance floor.

[azande]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
There aren't that many who don't mind. There's 9.52% of all dancers who don't mind smoky dance floors according to the poll a the top of this page. That's less than one in ten dancers. And you must bear in mind that's all dancers, not non-smoking dancers. I do not know the point of view of non-smokers because I've not asked them the question in a non-leading way. How does the Tasmanian Devil know with such confidence what the view of non-smokers is

I would add the one that loves them so we get to 1 in 10!
And there are only 1 in 7 that DON'T go to a smoky place.
The rest either go to a place where smoking is banned or they still go where smoking is allowed and they think that dancing is more important that their health. (And we don't know how many of each there are!)

One way or another the poll doesn't prove much.

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Tazmanian Devil
I am only going by the non-smokers at the venues that I dance in which have never complained about the smoking to myself or any of my other dance friends. [/B]

So now we have a conclusion that people don't mind smoky dance floors because they've never spoken about it at all! If I presented this type of evidence to my Professor it would probably have been returned torn in half it is so worthless. The only way to find out people's opinions is to have an independent person ask a significant, and hopefully stratified, sample a non-leading question.

Originally posted by Tazmanian Devil
and as far as the polls go not every body that goes to ceroc venues is on this forum are they, even alot of very experienced dancers have never heard of it or are not connected to the internet, so it's not exactly the majority of dancers now is it. [/B]

You do not need to ask the majority a question to find out how they think. You need to ask a sample. To put it simply, if you want to know how much salt there is in the sea you take samples at different places measure the salt content take an average and then make a calculation based on the volume of the sea. Dancers are quite homogenous compared to the population. A sample such as the one taken on this Forum would provide a significant result that would be reproducible. The only major thing wrong with this is the sampling method in that responders are self-selecting. But as both non-smokers and smokers would feel the need to state their case I believe that would balance things out - although I can't be 100% certain.

Now I have a question for the Tasmanian Devil.

Which one of the following statements do you agree with?

A. I believe that there is a risk to health from passive smoking in dance venues that allow smoking around the dance floor?

B. I believe that there is no risk to health from passive smoking in dance venues that allow smoking around the dance floor?

If your answer is A then you have so far been saying that dancers should be taking a risk with their health by dancing in smoky venues.

If your answer is B you have been taking your stance from ignorance of the avaliable data on the risks of passive smoking.

From what you've said so far I would say that you have come to conclusions about what people think based on what you think. Having conducted hundreds of surveys I can tell you that is almost always wrong.

[Graham]

Originally posted by azande
And there are only 1 in 7 that DON'T go to a smoky place.
The rest either go to a place where smoking is banned or they still go where smoking is allowed and they think that dancing is more important that their health. (And we don't know how many of each there are!)

Yet again you assume too much. I answered "hate" rather than "make a stand" because I have never actually checked the smoking policy of a venue before giong for the first time, so it would be dishonest to say I never went anywhere near them. Until recently, smoking was technically permitted at the venues I attend, but few people actually lit up round the dance floor, and when they did I either moved away or a certain mutual friend would ask them to go outside! There are venues I would now not go to because on previous visits I found them too smoky. I don't see how this equates to me "not caring very much" about smoke on the dance floor. You should bear in mind that people may not HAVE to take a stand, simply because there isn't a smoking problem at the venues they normally attend.

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by azande
I would add the one that loves them so we get to 1 in 10!

Sorry, I could be accused of abusing statistics here. I was quoting the poster who said that the majority 'don't mind smoky dance floors'. If we use those who don't mind or love smoky dance floors that makes 11 out of 100. Still not a 'majority'.

Originally posted by azande
I would add the one that loves them so we get to 1 in 10!
And there are only 1 in 7 that DON'T go to a smoky place.
The rest either go to a place where smoking is banned or they still go where smoking is allowed and they think that dancing is more important that their health. (And we don't know how many of each there are!)

One way or another the poll doesn't prove much.

Azande, are you sure you aren't a politician? You are quoting the results of a survey when it suits your ends. Then you're going on to say the poll doesn't prove much

[azande]

Originally posted by Graham
Yet again you assume too much. I answered "hate" rather than "make a stand" because I have never actually checked the smoking policy of a venue before giong for the first time, so it would be dishonest to say I never went anywhere near them. Until recently, smoking was technically permitted at the venues I attend, but few people actually lit up round the dance floor, and when they did I either moved away or a certain mutual friend would ask them to go outside! There are venues I would now not go to because on previous visits I found them too smoky. I don't see how this equates to me "not caring very much" about smoke on the dance floor. You should bear in mind that people may not HAVE to take a stand, simply because there isn't a smoking problem at the venues they normally attend.

Of course people don't have to make a stand. But what I'm saying is that only people who do make a stand (IMHO) care enough about the smoky venue. And since we don't know whether the "majority" either chooses to go anyway or doesn't have to choose because smoking is already banned, the poll doesn't say much.

I've always been of the opinion that if there is something you hate enough you just avoid it. If dancing is more important than a smoky place, well.. you go to those venues knowing what to expect.

[Graham]

Originally posted by azande
I've always been of the opinion that if there is something you hate enough you just avoid it. If dancing is more important than a smoky place, well.. you go to those venues knowing what to expect.

When you are saying is that smoking should be allowed in all places, since the only people who would strongly object will by definition not be there. I take it you also think that if I really didn't want to be involved in a traffic accident I would avoid roads.