Floor Craft.... Or lack of

[Stuart M]

I stopped being funny on the forum around April last year I thought

Yeah, roughly around the point you suggested Falkirk as a tourist destination.

But then that was inevitable.


You can't get funnier than that.

[MartinHarper]

I dont think ceroc is ideal for dancing in a small space. Salsa is easier to confine in a small space. Therefore, no matter your floor craft ability it is extremely difficult to avoid a collison of some type with another couple.

I agree that from the Modern Jive and the Salsa I've been taught, Salsa has typically had the more compact moves. However, it is certainly possible to dance Modern Jive in a compact way. Perhaps it would help if compact moves were taught often at venues that get very busy?

If the dancefloor is full skip the dance.

Problem is, a dance floor that looks full to you might look full of space to another dancer with a larger repertoire of compact movements and stylings, and vica versa. How can we cope with that?

[Chef]

Perhaps it would help if compact moves were taught often at venues that get very busy?
?

Just an observation. I dance a fair bit in London as well as out in the wilds of East Sussex and it seems to me that the floorcraft is BETTER in the crowded London venues than in the venues where there is oodles of space.

Where space is very limited people do make thier dancing more compact but even so, with such limited space the margins for error are smaller. You only need one couple (which ever of them that may be responsible) to be inaccacurate, incapable, or reckless to require a neighbouring couple to take evasive action which, in turn causes the couple next to them to have to evade. Most of the time this happens without contact being made but sometimes someone doesn't see it coming or can't get out of the way in time.

I often see venues out in the country with so much space that there is a distinct feeling of tumbleweed about to blow through the place. Yet these places are often where you get people that want to join the dance floor by walking backwards on it, flailing themselves about and doing moves in seemingly random directions while all the time looking at the floor. I will never understand why people want to join the dance floor with less that 15 seconds of a track left or why they seem to dance in my trouser cuff instead of walking the 6 yards to the area of unoccupied dance floor the size of a luxury kitchen.

All the dance moves I have seen taught in classes have been compact but often the moves are not then danced like that once the class is over.

[MartinHarper]

All the dance moves I have seen taught in classes have been compact...

Then maybe the moves taught in classes in crowded venues should be more compact than usual.

[spindr]

If elite dancers get onto the dance floor, dance ethics should be to give them room.

Hmmm, but surely it'll be the beginners who should have the worst floorcraft, and may therefore need a bit more room than "elite" dancers?
SpinDr

[Stuart M]

Hmmm, but surely it'll be the beginners who should have the worst floorcraft, and may therefore need a bit more room than "elite" dancers?
SpinDr

I'd kind of agree, but how then could they really learn floorcraft? It's something you can't really practice. Also, one of the most common problems among beginners is taking big steps; giving them extra space does nothing to help them cure that.

I did find Thetruth's logic a bit weird (in terms of its implications, possibly my interpretation of the words used). No dancer should ever really be given distinct consideration on the social dancefloor, for the simple reason that, from one second to the next, you may never know the standard/state of mind/energy levels of the dancer next to you. On a busy dancefloor, it makes sense to just assume everyone's going to do big stuff, no?

[dave the scaffolder]

Assuming this was happening at the end of dances, perhaps those people still dancing should be more considerate of those coming off the floor, rather than blaming them.

.

Sorry but i must disagree with you there, if you have finished dancing leave the floor without interfering with anybody dancing...Seems like basic manners to me.

Oh and another thing if i collide with anybody, being my fault or not, i always apolagise. there are a lot of people who do not. We are all there to enjoy ourselves sometimes we collide an apolagy goes a long way, a nasty look goes nowhere.

xxx xxx DTS Dave

[Thetruth]

Assuming by "elite" you mean "very good", and by "give them room" you mean "more room than any other dancer", why? And should such dancers wear badges, or perhaps more accurately bumper stickers? Some suggestions:

• Caution! Elite dancer in training
• How's My Catapult? 555-7420
• WC Swingers do it to a different beat!
• My other partner is David Barker
• I Won a Dance Comp and All I Got Was This Crappy Sticker

Ooo, now there's a thread idea...

Love how you captured the essence of my post but left out the next sentence quite graciously to give your post some purpose. Perhaps you should read my post fully, it would then make your post look silly.

[Thetruth]

I did find Thetruth's logic a bit weird (in terms of its implications, possibly my interpretation of the words used).

Thats because you didnt read it properly..........................try reading it again please and note the last comment rather than noting what suits your purpose like a reporter from a gossip magazine.

[Dreadful Scathe]

Love how you captured the essence of my post but left out the next sentence quite graciously to give your post some purpose. Perhaps you should read my post fully, it would then make your post look silly.

But your next sentence was "If your a "scrubber" dancer you should be given the same consideration though."

Which is another way of saying "be considerate of everyone on the dance floor" - so why did you even bother talking about elite dancers in the first place? Its no surprise people think you mean elite dancers should be singled out in some way...because you just did that

Get off your high horse, its actually a minature shetland pony

[happygoldfish]

Hmm …

I did find Thetruth's logic a bit weird (in terms of its implications, possibly my interpretation of the words used).

Thats because you didnt read it properly..........................try reading it again please and note the last comment rather than noting what suits your purpose like a reporter from a gossip magazine.

But by then, he'd already asked you to explain, and you hadn't. How long was he supposed to wait?

Anyway, he makes it clear he's commenting on the implication rather than the words, and that he isn't sure what the words mean.

If elite dancers get onto the dance floor, dance ethics should be to give them room. If your a "scrubber" dancer you should be given the same consideration though.

Assuming by "elite" you mean "very good", and by "give them room" you mean "more room than any other dancer", why?
And should such dancers wear badges, or perhaps more accurately bumper stickers? Some suggestions: {snip suggestively funny}

Love how you captured the essence of my post but left out the next sentence quite graciously to give your post some purpose. Perhaps you should read my post fully, it would then make your post look silly.

I think one of us is missing the point!

I thought StuartM's post (… and I could be wrong …) was intended to look silly!

And, IMO, very good it was, too!

StuartM's post had only two purposes.

In the first sentence, he simply asks you "why?" – that was the serious part of his post. It was commendable for its clarity, brevity, and friendliness.

Yet you still haven't answered it.

And in the rest of the post, he gives some excellent and much-needed light relief from posters like me.

Enjoy posts like that! He welcomed you personally into the argument (ok, the implicaton is he disagrees with you, but that's how arguments work, isn't it?), and then made everyone generally laugh!

Preserve the bowliverse!

[Stuart M]

Thats because you didnt read it properly..........................try reading it again please and note the last comment rather than noting what suits your purpose like a reporter from a gossip magazine.

No, as DS pointed out, I read it as best I can. There's no point in mentioning "elite" dancers specifically, within the context of what you were talking about. And putting all dancers into boxes marked "elite" and "scrubber" was frankly insulting. Where's the dividing line?

And as happygoldfish pointed out, the purpose of my post was firstly to seek clarification, and inject some humour into the mix (which I then suggested should be moved to another thread).

Great, just spent a post concurring excessively.

Anyway , my apologies to thetruth , if you feel I jumped in on you a little too heavily. Welcome to the Forum - let's join forces and go inflict mindless violence on some floor-hoggers.

[Dreadful Scathe]

TheTruth is....out there.


<insert theme tune>

[happygoldfish]

not much time … can't reply to everyone? … ah! …

I know a few dancers who pay little attention to the size of my steps and the amount of movement I'd like them to take. Perhaps you can help me?

I can't resist flowers!

ducasi, it isn't the size of your steps that matters, it's the quality.

Don't let any girl tell you otherwise!

And with some moves I really can't see how. How exactly can the lead prevent a follower from taking a large step over in a step across, for instance?

I agree. He probably can't.

So, on a crowded floor, with a large-stepping follower, don't do a step-across, do something more controllable like a shoulder-spin or a man-spin instead. And with a really large-stepping follower, do a man-spin but keep hold of her hand until much later than normal.

And if you have started a step-across … bear in mind you don't have to finish it!

A step-across propels the follower quite sharply away from you. It's a particularly hazardous move.

I've known followers who habitually take big steps - dancing with them is like a constant battle.

In a constant battle, there are only constant losers …

Would that be one of those cooperating battles, or one of those non-cooperating battles?

Anyway – the leader's chief humanitiarian responsibility is to avoid collateral damage!

But if they are driving dangerously , and something happens - its not an accident is it.

If I apply for job as a driver, and they ask me if I had any accidents in my previous job, and I say no, and then they find I did, can I say "But they were all entirely my fault, so they weren't" accidents"?

Part of the culture of denial of responsiblity, in both driving and dancing, is to say that anything that's not deliberate is, by definition, an accident, and anything that's an accident is, by definition, not dangerous, and therefore anything that's not deliberate is not dangerous!

And all you can come up with is "broken floor" and "slippy bits" as possible exceptions ...weirdo

No! I didn't say "broken floor" and "slippy bits", I said "slippery or broken bits" – there is a difference!

Dangerous flooring is about feeling, not looking. Dangerous people is about looking.

Floroing is not an exception so much as a completely different category.

For potentially dangerous people, the leader can judge for himself, because he can see – if he's bothering to look.

But for potentially dangerous flooring, the leader usually can't see – you usually don't know there's a problem until you feel it.

If the follower feels bad flooring, she knows the leader can't feel it! She has to tell him! But if she sees danger to herself from people, they should already be in the leader's field of vision, so she shouldn't have to tell the leader, or break her programming, unless he's irresponsible and/or an idiot!

Plus, of course, if he's doing a responsibililible job of steering, he's probably not going to be looking down at her feet!

You really don't try to spell responsibility do you

I do know how to spell responsibililility … I just don't know when to stop …

…call me irresponsibililible! …

[Dreadful Scathe]

If I apply for job as a driver, and they ask me if I had any accidents in my previous job, and I say no, and then they find I did, can I say "But they were all entirely my fault, so they weren't" accidents"?

What are you wibbling on about ?

Part of the culture of denial of responsiblity, in both driving and dancing, is to say that anything that's not deliberate is, by definition, an accident, and anything that's an accident is, by definition, not dangerous, and therefore anything that's not deliberate is not dangerous!

Its not denying responsibilitity if no one is at fault, which is actually quite likely on the dance floor. Perhaps less likely in a car, as theres always quite a lot of things that helped the accident happen - not using mirrors, speeding, blind corners and hills, screaming kids in the back etc...apart from rare occasions like bigdjivers example, you can usually claim at least some minor fault with one or both drivers. On a dance floor, where we are talking about leaders and followers - it does not make sense to me that the leader is always at fault if something happens to the folllower. The leader can try his best to steer, keep the follower in close and allow space for movement - but all the other leaders are doing this too...bumps are occasionally going to happen.

Although I am reminded of the time DavidB danced with theTramp at a very busy Glasgow party night - no one went near for fear of being flattened

[Thetruth]

But your next sentence was "If your a "scrubber" dancer you should be given the same consideration though."

Which is another way of saying "be considerate of everyone on the dance floor" - so why did you even bother talking about elite dancers in the first place? Its no surprise people think you mean elite dancers should be singled out in some way...because you just did that

Get off your high horse, its actually a minature shetland pony

I made reference to elite dancers, rather than just say everyone. I wanted to reference that it didnt matter if some couple are awesome on the dance floor, beginners has the same right.....parachuting now from my pony

[Thetruth]

No, as DS pointed out, I read it as best I can. There's no point in mentioning "elite" dancers specifically, within the context of what you were talking about. And putting all dancers into boxes marked "elite" and "scrubber" was frankly insulting. Where's the dividing line?

Pardon me, judge and executioner..........(I demand a recount). Not sure what you mean by dividing line? But think you are implying there should be none at a dance party. How true.
Scrubbers Insulting? Not really, some folks can dance and some folks just cant no matter how hard they try. So they are called scrubbers, in that they are great at cleaning the dancefloor.

[Stuart M]

If elite dancers get onto the dance floor, dance ethics should be to give them room. If your a "scrubber" dancer you should be given the same consideration though.

Your original statement, which appeared to put all dancers into one of 2 categories "Elite", and "Scrubber". I have helpfully included both sentences, lest I be accused again of selective quoting.

Assuming by "elite" you mean "very good", and by "give them room" you mean "more room than any other dancer", why?

My original question, which as yet you haven't answered. The basic point is, your original two sentences were pointless, if you agree that no-one deserves special consideration.

Pardon me, judge and executioner..........(I demand a recount). Not sure what you mean by dividing line? But think you are implying there should be none at a dance party. How true.

Does this make DS and happygoldfish the jury?
Ah, so you agree no-one deserves special consideration. So again, why mention "Elite" dancers in the first place?

Scrubbers Insulting? Not really, some folks can dance and some folks just cant no matter how hard they try. So they are called scrubbers, in that they are great at cleaning the dancefloor.

I'd suggest the "some folks just can't" group is a small proportion of those who regularly attend MJ venues. Very small, even (I really am sounding more and more like Snagglepuss as I get older). Then there's the "some folks who can dance a wee bit", "some folks who can dance OK", "some folks who can dance as well as The truth", "some folks who can dance almost Elitely", etc. etc. categories. But you haven't made a special distinction for them. So, going back to your original statement, that makes nearly everyone an Elite dancer. But "Elite" is a word implying a small group (or a vintage computer game). I'm really confussed now and I'm going away to a thread with simpler rules

[Beowulf]

"Elite" dancers

"Elite" is a word implying a small group (or a vintage computer game).

Follower : "Hmm that's an interesting dance move Pete.. what's it called"
Pete : "Dodging the thargoids! followed by the sidewinder shuffle.. "

[Dreadful Scathe]

id see the doctor about that.

Anyway...StuartM is a fool ...imagine calling Elite "vintage" when it was clearly the word "classic" he was looking for.