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Thread: Floor Craft.... Or lack of

  1. #41
    Omnipotent Moderator Tiggerbabe's Avatar
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    Re: Denial of responsibility

    I'm a follower (honest ) and I look out for my partner (and myself) to avoid any collisions/injury. I only expect the leader to take full responsibility over this when he is leading me backwards.
    "If you rebel against high heels, take care to do so in a very smart hat.'' George Bernard Shaw

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    Re: Denial of responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    I should have thought it was obvious that nobody saw it coming,
    It certainly was to me - I read happy's reply with some surprise to be honest.

  3. #43
    Registered User happygoldfish's Avatar
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    Smile Re: Denial of responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by Raul View Post
    Let me give some other examples …
    In what respect do you disagree with my answer to your four previous examples?

    Your four previous examples were serious, but your two new ones don't seem to be …

    1. In "smooching", there's no leader and no follower. Each partner has very restricted vision (if they're the same height). Each is responsible for the area they can see.

    All academic, since it's difficult to see how either can whisk their parner out of the way when they're both locked together!

    2. Erm … how can there be a leader when you're both having a drink?
    YOU SEXIST!

    Quote Originally Posted by Raul View Post
    … only dance with ladies with very short legs.
    Like ducasi's new avatar?

    Seriouly though, have you noticed that some followers like twisty on the spot moves whilst others do their hiking and dancing in the same evening.


    Quote Originally Posted by StuartM View Post
    Indeed. And one aspect of defensive dancing is "taking small steps".

    Which has to be done by both leader and follower. And it's difficult for a lead to make a follower take small steps.
    I'm baffled. You can lead a partner into taking small steps. No?

    If she doesn't cooperate, then I agree it's her responsiblity as well.

    But if she cooperates, it's still your responsiblity to try to avoid injury to her.

    Why should a cooperating partner be saddled with shared responsibility because of the behaviour of some other partners you've danced with??

    Plenty of followers, like BeccaB, get injured even though they're cooperating, and I really object to denial of responsiblity by their leaders on the basis of what other followers have done!

  4. #44
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    Re: Denial of responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by happygoldfish View Post
    If she doesn't cooperate, then I agree it's her responsibility as well.
    If she does co-operate she bears NO responsibility ?

    what if she thinks she is co-operating but has misunderstood the lead ? Entirely her fault then surely ?

    I think thats what accidents are...accidents...


    Plenty of followers, like BeccaB, get injured even though they're cooperating, and I really object to denial of responsibility
    Has anyone said that they have no responsibility ? Must a leader claim full responsibility for EVERY eventuality ? accidents ? slips ? vampires ? must the leader be responsible for all of those ?
    Last edited by Dreadful Scathe; 23rd-July-2007 at 01:52 PM.

  5. #45
    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Denial of responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Must a leader claim full responsibility for EVERY eventuality ? accidents ? slips ? vampires ? must the leader watch for all of those ?
    It's the vampire peacocks you've got to especially watch out for!
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

  6. #46
    Registered User Twirly's Avatar
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    Re: Denial of responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiggerbabe View Post
    I'm a follower (honest ) and I look out for my partner (and myself) to avoid any collisions/injury. I only expect the leader to take full responsibility over this when he is leading me backwards.


    Any follower who resigns the responsibility for her own safety to her dancer partner deserves to be trodden on!

    Having said that, if you’re actually following, you generally go where your lead wants you to – although the follow has to be responsible for not using styling which is likely to inconvenience/injure other dancers, and potentially themselves. But follows have eyes, and we should use them. There are often times when I can see parts of the dance floor which my lead can’t – I’d be an idiot if I didn’t make use of the information that viewpoint affords me, to take care of myself, my lead and other dancers… However, I’ve heard of leads who don’t take any notice of follows trying to give them indications that there is a problem approaching.

    Maybe this argument about who’s responsible for safety isn’t useful anyway. After all, shouldn’t we all take care of each other to some degree anyway? No leader is perfect, they can’t predict exactly what their follow and the surrounding dancers on the floor are going to do next all of the time. If everyone takes reasonable care, shows consideration for other dancers, then accidents, whilst they will still happen, would probably be less frequent, and certainly less severe.

    But this needs to be taught – and I don’t think it is, sufficiently. Even a quick reminder to look out for other people on the dance floor before freestyle starts would be a start. I suspect that “Ceroc” thinks it is common sense – but clearly it isn’t.

    And whilst on this subject, I’m just going to have a quick gripe about two poor floorcraft incidents which happened to me at the Beach Ballroom, one of which nearly ruined my evening. In the first, I possibly, taking HGF’s point of view, should have walked off the dancefloor – I was being lead backwards, when I discovered that my right foot was trapped, back and front, between that of my lead, and someone behind me – I wasn’t actually that surprised when shortly afterwards he was leading me close enough to someone else to get kicked by someone’s high heel hard enough to make me hop and mutter under my breath whilst clutching my right ankle. The woman who kicked me was good enough to come after me and apologise later – I didn’t blame her, I blamed both our leads.

    In the second (with a different lead) – I’m not clear exactly what happened. His lead was extremely forceful – so much so that he actually commented on it part way through the dance! He lead me backwards, and just as he started moving backwards himself (and hence me forwards), someone from another couple tripped me, and I went flying – crash landing on the floor (first time – and hopefully the last). Whoever tripped me was behind me, so I had no way of seeing them. Again, both leads were responsible in my opinion. I tried to continue dancing, but I was too badly shaken, and for the first time ever walked off the floor in the middle of the dance. It was only thanks to Beo that I eventually managed to get back on the dance floor later in the evening, though I didn’t have many more dances as my confidence was badly shaken and I was very embarrassed.

  7. #47
    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Denial of responsibility

    I just can't help myself...
    Quote Originally Posted by happygoldfish View Post
    I'm baffled. You can lead a partner into taking small steps. No?
    I'm curious... How do you lead your partner into taking small steps?

    I know a few dancers who pay little attention to the size of my steps and the amount of movement I'd like them to take. Perhaps you can help me?
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Re: Denial of responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by happygoldfish View Post
    I'm baffled. You can lead a partner into taking small steps. No?
    As Raul has pointed out (and I implied by saying it was "difficult", not impossible), yes - but something of a major chore with a lot of moves, I'd say. And with some moves I really can't see how. How exactly can the lead prevent a follower from taking a large step over in a step across, for instance? Perhaps you'd advocate the "choker chain" approach of pulling the follower back every time they take a big step? Doesn't make for an enjoyable dance for either participant. I've known followers who habitually take big steps - dancing with them is like a constant battle.

    However, if we take your argument to its logical conclusion, there would be little need to teach a follower anything, you seem to think the lead is responsible for everything the follower does. I appreciate this is straw man logic, but I'm wondering whether you consider the follow to have any responsibility at all.

  9. #49
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    Re: Floor Craft.... Or lack of

    I am getting bored with this. FWW I was looking at the motor accident from my bedroom window overlooking the junction.

    I think Happy Goldfish is moving towards my position by posting travelling a 0 mph as a "reasonable" way of avoiding collisions. The collary in dance terms is to remain rooted to the spot, and I do not think that is what MJ is about.

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    Re: Floor Craft.... Or lack of

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    I am getting bored with this.


    You are not the only one!

    If my partner gets bored of my defensive, on the spot dancing and walks off but is hit by someone on the way off the floor.

    Am I responsible? OF COURSE, It is my fault ...... again !

  11. #51
    Registered User happygoldfish's Avatar
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    Smile Re: Denial of responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by DreadfulScathe View Post
    If she does co-operate she bears NO responsibility ?
    {for steering to avoid injuries to herself} YES.

    what if she thinks she is co-operating but has misunderstood the lead ? Entirely her fault then surely ?
    No, it's entirely the teacher's fault!
    Sue Ceroc™!

    I think thats what accidents are...accidents...
    There are dangerous drivers who think "accidents are...accidents..."

    And there are dangerous dancers who think "accidents are...accidents..."

    Must a leader claim full responsibility for … slips?
    You probably didn't see my earlier post:

    Quote Originally Posted by happygoldfish View Post
    (I think I'd better agree one exception to my general rule – looking for slippery or broken bits of floor is always a shared responsibity! )
    vampires ? must the leader watch for all of those ?
    All MJers should eat plenty of garlic. That would solve all problems on the dance-floor!

    has anyone noticed I've nothing to do today?
    … and it's raining!

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    Re: Denial of responsibility

    If she does co-operate she bears NO responsibility ?
    Quote Originally Posted by happygoldfish View Post
    {for steering to avoid injuries to herself} YES.
    No NOT for just "steering"...for ANYTHING. Trying to change a general into a specific to support your argument is not clever


    There are dangerous drivers who think "accidents are...accidents..."
    But if they are driving dangerously , and something happens - its not an accident is it.

    I think I'd better agree one exception to my general rule – looking for slippery or broken bits of floor is always a shared responsibity!
    Yes, its a general rule. And all you can come up with is "broken floor" and "slippy bits" as possible exceptions ...weirdo


    You really don't try to spell responsibility do you

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    Registered User Beowulf's Avatar
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    Re: Denial of responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by happygoldfish View Post
    Sue Ceroc™!

    So who's she then??

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    Re: Denial of responsibility

    A new Ceroc rule, in the style of The Ramones", all Ceroc Teachers must change their surname to "Ceroc".

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    Re: Floor Craft.... Or lack of

    I've been avoiding this thread because floorcraft really winds me up sometimes. Having read the first page through, I got bored and decided to post.

    I lead and follow. I tend to lead just as much as I follow, some nights I lead more, some nights follow more, but generally I lead 50% and follow 50% of the night.

    Whenever I am leading, I alone take full responsibility for my actions, this isn't because I'm "supposed" to, but I feel I am a competent enough dancer to watch out for myself and my partner. If I do have any collisions with anyone or my partner does, I instantly yell "sorry" be it my fault or not. There have been times where the follower I am leading has taken a huge step back into someone on a very crowded dance floor, this I feel was out of my control, am I correct in this?

    When I follow, I also take full responsibility for my actions, because I lead, I have taken the "always looking" action and constantly look out for myself and my leader, this is extremely useful when a leader is looking a little "short on moves" as they say, and is trying desperately hard to think of something to do, this is where most collisions take place, because the leader is too busy thinking about leading, they forget about others around them, this is where I then become my leaders eyes and I act accordingly, most times my leader doesn't realise I just prevented a major collision, sometimes they do realise and thank me.

    So, in conclusion, I believe that floorcraft applies to both leaders and followers.

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    Re: Floor Craft.... Or lack of

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie View Post
    I've been avoiding this thread because floorcraft really winds me up sometimes. Having read the first page through, I got bored and decided to post.

    I lead and follow. I tend to lead just as much as I follow, some nights I lead more, some nights follow more, but generally I lead 50% and follow 50% of the night.

    Whenever I am leading, I alone take full responsibility for my actions, this isn't because I'm "supposed" to, but I feel I am a competent enough dancer to watch out for myself and my partner. If I do have any collisions with anyone or my partner does, I instantly yell "sorry" be it my fault or not. There have been times where the follower I am leading has taken a huge step back into someone on a very crowded dance floor, this I feel was out of my control, am I correct in this?

    When I follow, I also take full responsibility for my actions, because I lead, I have taken the "always looking" action and constantly look out for myself and my leader, this is extremely useful when a leader is looking a little "short on moves" as they say, and is trying desperately hard to think of something to do, this is where most collisions take place, because the leader is too busy thinking about leading, they forget about others around them, this is where I then become my leaders eyes and I act accordingly, most times my leader doesn't realise I just prevented a major collision, sometimes they do realise and thank me.

    So, in conclusion, I believe that floorcraft applies to both leaders and followers.
    I dont enjoy dancing on a crowded dance floor. I feel my urge to dance is suppressed because I cannot move how I want to move. It is frustrating and usually results in me not enjoying the night dancing. How can anyone plan moves when there are "road blocks" everywhere? I dont think ceroc is ideal for dancing in a small space. Salsa is easier to confine in a small space. Therefore, no matter your floor craft ability it is extremely difficult to avoid a collison of some type with another couple. Couples can spend more time looking to avoid a collison than actually dancing.....let alone enjoying it!!! People need to be more considerate on the dance floor. If the dancefloor is full skip the dance. I ask this question of you all, "If a dance couple go to a nightclub, that is not a ceroc dance party and decide to dance full throttle, then someone in the nightclub on the dancefloor is going to get very upset and challenge the couple to stop knocking into people". But this doesnt happen as most cerocers wont dance at nightclubs on a crowded dance floor and not show consideration for others......................because they'll more than likely end up in a fight. So why does consideration of other dancers "fly out the window" at ceroc dance parties? Because we all smile when bumped and say its okay, whilst under our breathe some are cursing mildly.............If elite dancers get onto the dance floor, dance ethics should be to give them room. If your a "scrubber" dancer you should be given the same consideration though.

  17. #57
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    Re: Floor Craft.... Or lack of

    Quote Originally Posted by Thetruth View Post
    If elite dancers get onto the dance floor, dance ethics should be to give them room.
    Assuming by "elite" you mean "very good", and by "give them room" you mean "more room than any other dancer", why? And should such dancers wear badges, or perhaps more accurately bumper stickers? Some suggestions:

    • Caution! Elite dancer in training
    • How's My Catapult? 555-7420
    • WC Swingers do it to a different beat!
    • My other partner is David Barker
    • I Won a Dance Comp and All I Got Was This Crappy Sticker


    Ooo, now there's a thread idea...

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    Re: Floor Craft.... Or lack of

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart M View Post
    Assuming by "elite" you mean "very good", and by "give them room" you mean "more room than any other dancer", why? And should such dancers wear badges, or perhaps more accurately bumper stickers? Some suggestions:

    • Caution! Elite dancer in training
    • How's My Catapult? 555-7420
    • WC Swingers do it to a different beat!
    • My other partner is David Barker
    • I Won a Dance Comp and All I Got Was This Crappy Sticker


    Ooo, now there's a thread idea...
    why a thread ? you've done all the jokes

  19. #59
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    Re: Floor Craft.... Or lack of

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    why a thread ? you've done all the jokes
    Sooo-rrree

    Note to self: be less funny than smurfy.

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    Re: Floor Craft.... Or lack of

    I stopped being funny on the forum around April last year I thought

    Ill try harder...perhaps an "Irony Corner" thread - starting with my favourite "Genius" t-shirt.

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