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Thread: Floor Craft.... Or lack of

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    Registered User BeccaB's Avatar
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    Floor Craft.... Or lack of

    Is floorcraft emphasised enough?
    I went to a dance venue on Friday and although it was quite busy there still seemed a reasonable bit of room to dance. But I still found that I was stood on, elbowed and kicked. The other problem was that as a song ended people weren't very careful about coming off the floor and so whilst trying to continue a dance people just walked into me!
    When I'm dancing I constantly look around to see where everyone else is but it seems that no one looks round for me! I came away a bit battered and bruised, and fed up really.
    Does anyone else get this? I know there's a few threads on this already but haven't seen anything for a while, so are teachers telling people about this enough?

    Rant over x

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    Re: Floor Craft.... Or lack of

    Ashtons is a nightmare people finish dancing and basically walk into you and dont seem to give a sh1t.

    It should be the venue manager making an announcement about floorcraft, but as usual, all they seem interested in is jamming more people in and making more money, and not dealing with any issues at all.

    I have had a few niggles at Asthons, and it seems to be Ceroc London just do not give a flying f&*k about anything.

    I went there one night with my Ceroc card and was told to fill out another registration card by the blonde on the desk, when i refused she said...if you dont fill it out you are not coming in, so i filled it out.

    Next time she asked me to do it again, so i had to remind her that we had this conversation last time i came and i filled one out then, and if you and Ceroc London cannot get your act together i do not want to be filling a membership card out everytime i come.

    So i emailed the numptys at Ceroc London ...I am still waiting for a reply.

    Is this the low standard of service which Ceroc London aspire to or can we hopefully see an improvement in the future.

    XXX XXX DTS Dave
    Last edited by David Bailey; 16th-July-2007 at 10:01 AM.

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    Dickie Davies' love-child Cruella's Avatar
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    Re: Floor Craft.... Or lack of

    I went to Chiswick for a couple of hours on Saturday. I was appalled at the lack of floorcraft, mainly from the people that weren't dancing at the time! I lost count of how many walked across the middle of the packed dancefloor.

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    Question Re: Floor Craft.... Or lack of

    Quote Originally Posted by BeccaB View Post
    When I'm dancing I constantly look around to see where everyone else is but it seems that no one looks round for me!
    This is your leaders' fault!

    Your leader should look round for you.

    It's the leader's responsibilty to steer, which includes avoiding collisions!

    In particular, when people are crossing the floor at the start of a new track, the leader should "dance defensively" until the traffic stops.

    Have you tried discussing this with leaders?

    Erm … hesitates … I wonder whether the answer is in the question. I don't know you from Eve, and so I've no idea how you dance, but you have told us that you constantly look around.

    I wonder whether your leaders would say "I could steer her a lot more easily if only she'd keep her eye on me, and go where I put her instead of back-seat driving"?

    You say you're constantly doing this, which I take it means with every leader.

    Most followers don't do this (in my observation), and yet don't get trodden on/elbowed/kicked, at least not often.

    Even if your evasive measures don't do you any harm, they don't seem to do you any good either, so why continue with them?

    Most followers, in my experience, have given up worrying, and just hope for the best!

    If I'm misunderstanding you, I apologise in advance.

    Does anyone else get this?
    Surely you've discussed this with other followers, in the ladies' room, etc?

    If their answers are "No" or "Not as much", then that's already told you that the problem is that you're doing something differently. That doesn't necessarily mean that it's your fault – but it does mean that you yourself could do something about it.

    But you need to get a friend to tell you what you're doing differently.

    Of course, if their answers are "Yes", then you should all get together and tell the teacher/staff.

    … kicked
    I think people should be reported for kicking (as opposed to treading-on). There's no excuse, on a crowded floor, for lifting their feet high enough to kick someone.

    If you have a footmark above the shoe-line, show it to the staff and make a formal complaint!

    Mere mortals like you or me dance with our feet on the floor. God-like beings who are capable of dancing with their feet above the floor should go back to where they came from!

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    Re: Floor Craft.... Or lack of

    When I say looking around I don't mean like the exorcist and my heads going 360 or anything, I mean i'm aware of what's going on that periferal vision thing (which i can't spell).
    There were a lot of other people who complained, those who weren't were maybe the ones walking straight across the floor!
    It felt like one of those places that wanted to get as many in as possible.

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    Re: Floor Craft.... Or lack of

    Quote Originally Posted by happygoldfish View Post


    Mere mortals like you or me dance with our feet on the floor. God-like beings who are capable of dancing with their feet above the floor should go back to where they came from!




    I have to say again, this is so unfair on the people who have never caused a problem, but unless they are perpared to help police the offenders, everyone will be tared with the same brush

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    Re: Floor Craft.... Or lack of

    Quote Originally Posted by Cruella View Post
    I went to Chiswick for a couple of hours on Saturday. I was appalled at the lack of floorcraft, mainly from the people that weren't dancing at the time! I lost count of how many walked across the middle of the packed dancefloor.
    We found the same thing at a Twyford event last year. I actually lost count of the times that people doing this walked straight into myself or my partner while we were dancing.

    Tip for crossing dancefloors, if one absolutely has to, and there isn't a way of walking around: don't walk across it, dance across it. It's the easiest way to get in tune with the dancers, and to stay out of their way.

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    Re: Floor Craft.... Or lack of

    Quote Originally Posted by happygoldfish View Post
    This is your leaders' fault!

    Your leader should look round for you.

    It's the leader's responsibilty to steer, which includes avoiding collisions!

    In particular, when people are crossing the floor at the start of a new track, the leader should "dance defensively" until the traffic stops.
    Wow. And I thought I was severe on the "it's the leaders' fault" front

    I agree that leaders have the most 'influence' on keeping a dance collision free, and as you say, dancing defensively is necessary at some points. You can't protect yourself and your partner against everything though, if other people on the floor aren't being careful.

    An example that's happened to me more times than I can remember:
    I lift my heel, then put it down on someone's foot which has somehow snuck under my heel in the scant second it was off the ground

    Another is: going into a close-hold sway, sometimes as a way of dancing defensively in a song transition - and still getting walked into by floor crossers, even though it couldn't be clearer that we're a) there, and b) staying there.

    I sometimes think that there should be compulsory floorcraft workshops.
    Topics to cover:
    • Dancers may step back at any time! Always leave space for them.
    • Walking without walking: how to dance your way on and off a dancefloor
    • Eyes in be back of your head Pt I: Ladies - how to steer your partner away from danger.
    • Eyes in be back of your head Pt II: Leaders - how to 'listen' to your partner.
    • Keep It Small! Simple manners on a crowded floor.

    Quote Originally Posted by happygoldfish View Post
    I think people should be reported for kicking (as opposed to treading-on). There's no excuse, on a crowded floor, for lifting their feet high enough to kick someone.

    If you have a footmark above the shoe-line, show it to the staff and make a formal complaint!


    In some of the Harlem ballrooms, in them days of yore, during the swing dance era, people could often get in serious trouble, or be thrown out of a venue for kicking backwards during a dance, regardless of whether they had actually kicked someone.

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    Re: Floor Craft.... Or lack of

    Quote Originally Posted by happygoldfish View Post
    Your leader should look round for you.
    It's the leader's responsibilty to steer, which includes avoiding collisions!
    Floorcraft is a shared responsibility between leader and follower.

    Quote Originally Posted by happygoldfish View Post
    If you have a footmark above the shoe-line, show it to the staff and make a formal complaint!
    Mere mortals like you or me dance with our feet on the floor.
    In my experience, most "kick" collisions are actually from folks taking regular steps where they lift their heels off the floor, rather than actual kicks.

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    Re: Floor Craft.... Or lack of

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264 View Post
    ... In some of the Harlem ballrooms, in them days of yore, during the swing dance era, people could often get in serious trouble, or be thrown out of a venue for kicking backwards during a dance, regardless of whether they had actually kicked someone.
    V. interesting... source?

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    Re: Floor Craft.... Or lack of

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    V. interesting... source?
    It was one of the old-timers talking at Herrang - but I honestly forget which (likely to have been Frankie, Norma Miller or Dawn Hampton). I've looked for a backup source online, but without success.

    Dancefloors in them days could get very crowded, so it would have been a sensible restriction on the social floor.

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    Re: Floor Craft.... Or lack of

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264 View Post
    It was one of the old-timers talking at Herrang - but I honestly forget which (likely to have been Frankie, Norma Miller or Dawn Hampton). I've looked for a backup source online, but without success.

    Dancefloors in them days could get very crowded, so it would have been a sensible restriction on the social floor.
    Thanks, I was hoping for some reminiscences of those times that I could read. Dancers, in general, seem much more involved in doing it than in writing about it.

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    Re: Floor Craft.... Or lack of

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    Thanks, I was hoping for some reminiscences of those times that I could read. Dancers, in general, seem much more involved in doing it than in writing about it.
    I have this book: Stompin' at the Savoy by Norma Miller, which is good (but I'd like more detail).

    Then there's Frankie's long-awaited Ambassador of Lindy Hop which I'll probably get this summer.

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    Registered User happygoldfish's Avatar
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    Smile Re: Floor Craft.... Or lack of

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    Floorcraft is a shared responsibility between leader and follower.
    Ah, but I said steer, not floorcraft.

    Surely steering is the sole responsibilty of the leader?

    In which case, the leader should be looking around for the follower!

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    Re: Floor Craft.... Or lack of

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264 View Post
    lots of very good stuff about shared responsibility and not being able to make up for others' lack of floorcraft.
    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    Floorcraft is a shared responsibility between leader and follower.


    I've lost count of the amount of times I've been as careful as I could be, only for myself and my partner to be wiped out by some idiot trying to show off doing a big flashy move on a crowded dance floor. There are plenty of times when your leader can't possibly keep you out of harm's way. The safety of my partner is paramount, but I'm not a mind-reader and it's not automatically my fault (even though I might feel like it is anyway).

    I'm also not perfect (no really ). Sometimes I don't see things coming which my partner does, and for the folower to take the initiative and step short, steer me, or put a hand out, makes for a smooth uninterrupted dance which we both enjoy more. Much better than letting a collision happen because it's "your leaders fault".

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    Re: Floor Craft.... Or lack of

    Quote Originally Posted by happygoldfish View Post
    Surely steering is the sole responsibilty of the leader?
    Not really. Consider everyone's favourite cheesy move: the in-out-in-out-chest. The follower is lead "through" the leader, but rather than barging into him and knocking him over, she stops herself and steps back. The same following principle applies if the follower is inadvertantly lead to collide with another dancer (or a pillar or whatever).

    Quote Originally Posted by happygoldfish View Post
    The leader should be looking around for the follower!
    And vica versa. Oh, and it helps if folks look out for themselves too.

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    Re: Floor Craft.... Or lack of

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    Not really. Consider everyone's favourite cheesy move: the in-out-in-out-chest. The follower is lead "through" the leader, but rather than barging into him and knocking him over, she stops herself and steps back.
    Or, in an unusual variation on said move, she punches him extremely hard with both fists right on the breastbone.

    That was a quite surreal moment. Somewhat painful too....

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    Registered User happygoldfish's Avatar
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    Angry Denial of responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264 View Post
    Wow. And I thought I was severe on the "it's the leaders' fault" front
    You ain't seen nuthin' yet …

    I've been putting off replying to this thread because, basically, I want to be rude, but as tactfully as possible.

    I … don't … like … this … culture … of denial of responsiblity!

    People saying it happens to me all the time, so it must be unavoidable, and it certainly can't be my fault!

    Surely followers are getting fed up with regularly being injured when dancing with certain leaders? Or maybe it's nearly all leaders?

    BeccaB complains:
    Quote Originally Posted by BeccaB View Post
    … it seems that no one looks round for me!
    And similar complaints by followers (not on this forum) are very common!

    Who steers? The leader steers! Who else?!

    If the follower gets injured, how can it be said that the leader shouldn't have seen it coming?

    Idiots don't "come from nowhere". If they're close enough to injure the follower, then either they're already in the leader's field of view, or they've got to go past him to get to the follower!

    It may be sudden, but nothing on the dance-foor is instantaneous!

    I accept that if the leader gets injured, it can be said that the leader shouldn't have seen it coming – the idiot could have come from behind the leader (and then indeed I agree it's the follower's job to look out, not for herself, but for her leader).

    But that can't physically happen if it's the follower that's injured.

    The leader must have been able to see the idiot beforehand!

    I agree sometimes it's a judgment call: the leader can see a dodgy situation, but he assesses it and genuinely decides it'll be a near-miss – and it isn't! In that situation, perhaps the leader can claim that he wasn't at fault.

    But he can't claim that it wasn't his responsibility! He can't claim that he didn't see the idiot!

    He saw the situation. He made the decision, it was his job to make the decision, it was his decision to carry on with the move.

    It was his responsiblity, his job, not his partner's job, and the only question is whether he did a good job or a bad one.

    The only exception would be where the follower isn't cooperating – isn't going where the leader is leading her. (Of course, the leader should still try to make allowance for that.) If an injury results, this lack of cooperation may make it solely or partly her fault. But if the follower is cooperating, then it's the leader's responsiblity.

    Now the rude bit:

    Too many experienced leaders seem to have this attitude, and followers like BeccaB suffer from it:

    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    I've lost count of the amount of times I've been as careful as I could be …
    If it occasionally happens, then maybe it isn't your fault (or maybe it is).
    But if it regularly happens, then … d'uhhh!

    There is such a thing as "defensive dancing".

    It's not as much fun as normal dancing.

    And, if it's done, it has to be done by the leader.

    Unfortunately, although the leader makes the choice, it's almost always the follower who is the potential victim.

    If you decide to do less "defensive dancing", and as a result your followers get injured more, then that's your decision. Maybe it's the right decision. But it's your decision. It's your responsiblity.

    If you've "lost count of the amount of times you've been as careful as you could be,"
    then you haven't been as careful as you could be!

    A lot more followers like BeccaB would get injured a lot less often if only there wasn't this culture of denial of responsibility!

    Would you want to be operated on by a surgeon who says "I've lost count of the amount of times I've been as careful as I could be …"?

    With surgeons, the statistics speak for themselves. And they're published.

    With dance leaders, the statistics also speak for themselves. They're just not usually published.

    Floorcraft (which is a very wide term) may well be a shared responsibility. But steering the follower out of harm's way isn't.

    Followers who grumble about repeated injuries shouldn't be brushed off with the implication that it's partly their fault.

    Leaders should stop suppporting each other in this denial of responsibility.

    If your (cooperating) follower gets injured, it may or may not be your fault. But it's always your responsibility!

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    Re: Denial of responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by happygoldfish View Post
    You ain't seen nuthin' yet …

    I've been putting off replying to this thread because, basically, I want to be rude, but as tactfully as possible.

    I … don't … like … this … culture … of denial of responsiblity!

    People saying it happens to me all the time, so it must be unavoidable, and it certainly can't be my fault!
    Who said that then?

    You have a commendable view, but personally, I don't believe collision avoidance can be solely down to one leader, nor that to say so is an avoidance of responsibility. Yes, the leaders have the biggest role in avoiding accidents. No, it isn't possible to guarantee 100% that accidents don't occur - no matter how carefully or defensively one dances.

    The way to avoid collisions is if everyone exhibits good floorcraft and common sense. If only one couple on the floor is doing so, it doesn't matter how defensively and carefully that leader dances and leads, they have a good chance of being collided with. They'll likely fare better than most others on the floor, but that's about it.

    We're all in this together.

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    Smile Re: Denial of responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264 View Post
    … solely down to one leader …
    Not actually understanding that.

    No, it isn't possible to guarantee 100% that accidents don't occur - no matter how carefully or defensively one dances.
    I agree!
    But I'm not objecting to denial of fault, only denial of responsibility (or, more precisely, to attributing some responsibility to a cooperating follower) …

    As I said, in some cases of injury to a cooperating follower, her leader may be able to claim (correctly) that he wasn't at fault, but surely he can't claim that it wasn't his responsibility?!

    I don't object to a leader sometimes saying "It wasn't my fault" (though I'd have grave doubts if he said it too often).

    I do object to a leader (with a cooperating follower) ever saying "It was partly the follower's responsiblilty". That's the moral issue!

    Very occasionally it's happened to my (cooperating) follower, and it hasn't been my fault, but I wouldn't have dreamed of saying or thinking that it wasn't my responsiblilty, or (same thing) that it was partly my partner's responsiblilty.

    I'm not sure whether you're with me here.

    I think that you are, but that you're just not saying it.

    When you say …

    Yes, the leaders have the biggest role in avoiding accidents.
    … you're presumably saying that the followers also have a role.

    But are you actually saying that that role (in relation to injuries to herself) is anything more than a mere duty to cooperate?

    (Incidentally, by "cooperating", I'd also include a follower (presumably a beginner) who's trying to cooperate but not succeeding – if her leader is aware of this, then any injury to her may or may not be his fault, but it's still entirely his responsibility, not partly hers.)

    The way to avoid collisions is if everyone exhibits good floorcraft and common sense. If only one couple on the floor is doing so, it doesn't matter how defensively and carefully that leader dances and leads, they have a good chance of being collided with. They'll likely fare better than most others on the floor, but that's about it.

    We're all in this together.
    I agree. But if I were a just-injured follower, while I might say exactly that to my leader, I think I'd be pretty annoyed if he said it to me!

    I'm tactful sometimes …

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