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Thread: Are aerials officially banned at Ceroc?

  1. #41
    The Dashing Moderator
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    Re: Are aerials officially banned at Ceroc?

    Just noticed the photos on a flyer I picked up last night (advertising a workshops+freestyle event on a forthcoming Saturday, run by Ceroc).

    1 photo clearly shows a couple posed in an aerial (can't remember exactly how they're defined, but her entire body is above his knee level).

    So the membership rules which ban aerials are hidden away, but the flyers which are given away in large numbers show photos of a couple doing them - and it's not in the context of a competition.
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    Re: Are aerials officially banned at Ceroc?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidY View Post
    Just noticed the photos on a flyer I picked up last night (advertising a workshops+freestyle event on a forthcoming Saturday, run by Ceroc).

    1 photo clearly shows a couple posed in an aerial (can't remember exactly how they're defined, but her entire body is above his knee level).

    So the membership rules which ban aerials are hidden away, but the flyers which are given away in large numbers show photos of a couple doing them - and it's not in the context of a competition.
    and the logo (look up) is still the logo
    ... my definition is a someone being in the air for longer than they can jump. eg Daddy carrying his child on his shoulders, bride being carried over threshold, piggy=backs ...

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    Commercial Operator StokeBloke's Avatar
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    Re: Are aerials officially banned at Ceroc?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trouble View Post
    Twirl[ie Bird]

    i have seen your aeirals with Stokie and to be honest, they are performed safely and absolutely without danger to anybody.
    Thank you
    Quote Originally Posted by fletch View Post
    The shame about this is, Stoke Bloke and Twirlie Bird are very responsible, and I have never seen them doing aerials, that could any way be classed as dangerous to other's, when we go the Roller World in Derby early and late when the venue has more room they can find a very quirt corner to have a go, totally without any issues.

    They are relitiverly new to MJ and particually enjoy Arials, its genuinely considerate people like them that will get penalised, for others stupidity.
    Thank you too babe

    We have found a simple solution to the irresponsible ban that Ceroc has introduced. As you had eluded to Fletch, we now mainly dance at venues that encourage responsible dancers and do not tar everyone with the same numpty brush. Jive Addiction are life savers! Wes and John The Roller World freestyle is an amazing event and if you get there early and stay late - as you say - there is ample chance to practise in a quiet corner of the floor totally free from the worry of people running into you. Highly recommended for ANYONE wanting the floor space to safely practice aerials unhindered by the 'finger wagging tutt-tutt-nazis'. In fact, what am I saying, it's a Jive Addiction event so it is highly recommended to EVERYONE

    We were recently at Revolution Dance and were taken to one side during the freestyle part of the evening and taught a lovely aerial by Steve, the teacher Being shown one-on-one how to safely do an aerial, with all the pitfalls being pointed out by an experienced teacher is a wonderful way to keep dancers safe. Then later in the night when the floor was all but empty we were able to safely put our new move into our dancing and left on a real high

    If we do go to a Ceroc venue now, it is usually just for blues dancing In a way Ceroc's irresponsible aerial ban has done us a favour. It has caused us to reconsider our choice of venue, and we no longer base our decision on convenience alone - I know; lazy but honest. We no longer settle for the lower quality local venues that were under-subscribed and therefore had room on the floor to safely practice all night. We now attend venues where safe dancing is not frowned upon and use the quieter part of the evening to practice a couple of moves. The level of dancers at these venues seem to be substantially higher, and as such, for us anyway it is a win-win situation.

  4. #44
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Are aerials officially banned at Ceroc?

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    We have found a simple solution to the irresponsible ban that Ceroc has introduced.
    Irresponsible in your view. Not responsible enough in mine. I guess DavidF and DavidB are just being old fuddy-duddies and I'm jumping on the safety-nazi bandwagon, presumably 'coz I'm also a David... David's are Evil, I guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    As you had eluded to Fletch, we now mainly dance at venues that encourage responsible dancers and do not tar everyone with the same numpty brush.
    If you'd been at Fulham at Thursday, you'd have wanted an all-out ban too. It's the only way to get through to the numpties, who never think their dancing is dangerous.

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    Jive Addiction are life savers! Wes and John
    I'd be very interested in knowing exactly what JA say regarding safety of moves, and how exactly numpy-aerialdom is prevented. John / Wes, care to comment? Because absent a total ban, the only truly safe method is continual monitoring (policing, even) - are you saying that happens at JA events?

    Or are people just somehow "inherently safer" at JA events by virtue of some mystic safety aura?

    P.S. If it seems I'm passionate about this - I am. I know the person who had the accident, very well - she's one of the truly top-flight MJ dancers in the country. If it can happen to her, it can happen to anyone. And at Fulham, it probably will...

  5. #45
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Are aerials officially banned at Ceroc?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    P.S. If it seems I'm passionate about this - I am. I know the person who had the accident, very well - she's one of the truly top-flight MJ dancers in the country. If it can happen to her, it can happen to anyone. And at Fulham, it probably will...
    Hmmm ... thats why I'm probably so anal about this safety thing as well. I've seen a fair few aerials go wrong and been caught a couple of times by dancers doing them on the social floor. Its a little strange that ALL the recognised experts on aerials: N&N; The Davids, Andy & Rena etc ALL say a big NO to aerials on the dancefloor, yet its newer dancers who think its fine. I remember when I first was dancing in Stoke and I used to do aerials thinking they were fun ... but in those days there was no-one to tell us any better. It wasn't till I did Beach Boogie that reallised my sins

    Having said that, I've probably seen more accidents through drops done badly ...

  6. #46
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Are aerials officially banned at Ceroc?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    Hmmm ... thats why I'm probably so anal about this safety thing as well. I've seen a fair few aerials go wrong and been caught a couple of times by dancers doing them on the social floor.
    There's probably some appropriate quote about bold aerialists and old aerialists, but no bold old aerialists...

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    Its a little strange that ALL the recognised experts on aerials: N&N; The Davids, Andy & Rena etc ALL say a big NO to aerials on the dancefloor, yet its newer dancers who think its fine.
    Not completely true - e.g. NZ Monkey and a lot of other Australian contingent are less worried about all this jumping around. But I think there's some truth in that if we're just considering UK posters. Again, old vs. bold.

    Anyway, back to the original point...

    It appears that Ceroc have officially banned aerials - they just haven't gone out of their way to tell people about it.

    I assume that all the franchisees know about the change, and hopefully all the teachers and crew also know - are there any teachers / taxis / venue managers who'd like to post to say what they've been told?

    I'd like to see this publicized better, of course - at the moment, it's a legitimate defence for numpty aerialists to simply say "Well, no-one told me the rules had been changed".

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    Re: Are aerials officially banned at Ceroc?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post

    P.S. If it seems I'm passionate about this - I am. I know the person who had the accident, very well - she's one of the truly top-flight MJ dancers in the country. If it can happen to her, it can happen to anyone. And at Fulham, it probably will...
    I have a non dancing friend who knows Sylvia Coleman, (Was she James Cronin's dance partner?).

    According to my friend Sylvia doesn't dance anymore as she is partially paralysed due to an incident dancing. Not sure if it was an aerial though.

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    Re: Are aerials officially banned at Ceroc?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    I assume that all the franchisees know about the change, and hopefully all the teachers and crew also know - are there any teachers / taxis / venue managers who'd like to post to say what they've been told?
    I was a taxi dancer when the ban was first brought in. I wasn't told about the details of the ban, the policing of the ban, how to report or deal with dancers who committed the offence of doing an aerial move or even what the definition of an aerial move was by the venue manager or the franchisee. I was given no details or instructions at all, other than a laminated A4 sign placed on the reception desk.

    I hope this clarifies the way that Ceroc (Midlands at least) is feeding back the information to the people who are meant to be enforcing this

  9. #49
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Are aerials officially banned at Ceroc?

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    I was a taxi dancer when the ban was first brought in. I wasn't told about the details of the ban, the policing of the ban, how to report or deal with dancers who committed the offence of doing an aerial move or even what the definition of an aerial move was by the venue manager or the franchisee. I was given no details or instructions at all, other than a laminated A4 sign placed on the reception desk.
    Yeah... that's pretty pathetic, really.

    It makes it look as if it's just been done for cover-your-backside reasons, rather than out of any genuine desire to improve safety and enjoyment.

    Ceroc should be more effective than this, they really should. They haven't even changed the rules in the non-members page on the website, so clearly it's not a massive priority for them.

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    I hope this clarifies the way that Ceroc (Midlands at least) is feeding back the information to the people who are meant to be enforcing this
    Yeah, thanks - that's pretty much what I'd expected, but I was hoping to be proved wrong...

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    Re: Are aerials officially banned at Ceroc?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    ...P.S. If it seems I'm passionate about this - I am. I know the person who had the accident, very well - she's one of the truly top-flight MJ dancers in the country. If it can happen to her, it can happen to anyone...
    There is a saying that hard cases make bad law. As I understand it, from bits and pieces on the forum, she was not injured by a third party dancing yards away.

    As I understand it she was injured by a partner who tried to turn her upside down without warning or consent. An inexcusable action. Dangerous dancers and dancing should be dealt with.

    I cannot see why so mnay are coming down on consenting adults who are accepting the risk to themselves and not endangering others.

    In my opinion there is a far greater justification for banning arials in competitions. Competitions encourage people to push their boundaries to the limits, and I cannot fully enjoy without discomfort such "to the limits" performing. I know that somewhere there are victims. Competitors are help up as role models, and their fame and prowess encourages imitation. The audience rarely gets to see the preparation and perils involved. That is one area where television has done us a small service.

    However Arials have long been a signature part of Jive, it is an adrenaline activity. If people are willing to accept a small level of risk to themselves, and only themselves, I see no reason to change that.

    And at Fulham, it probably will...
    The last time I went there was a long time ago. It was too crowded. I stood on a guys foot, apologised, moved to a different corner. I stood on his foot again. I apologised and moved to a different corner. I stood on his foot again ...

    Like Baden Powell house it was struck of my list of venues to attend because I found them, back then, both too crowded and dangerous for me, just doing basic Ceroc moves.

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    Re: Are aerials officially banned at Ceroc?

    An aspect which may not have been covered fully in this discussion is the Legal Liability in case of serious injury.

    I suspect that the Ceroc “ban” is an attempt by Ceroc and their insurers to protect themselves from any claim from an injured party. It means that if they are successful in this, an injured party will only be able to sue the perpetrator of the accident and not Ceroc and its staff (as well).

    From what has been said on this thread I doubt that this defence will hold water if the injured party and their lawyers can demonstrate that the “ban” has not been publicised and is not sensibly enforced.

    To those who do aerials, I would say that you are still primarily responsible for any damage you do to your partner and third parties both morally and financially if something goes drastically wrong. I think that you are fortunate that Ceroc and other organisations are still so “casual” about this matter as injured parties will continue to find it easier to them than you!

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    Re: Are aerials officially banned at Ceroc?

    Quote Originally Posted by Raul View Post
    An aspect which may not have been covered fully in this discussion is the Legal Liability in case of serious injury.

    I suspect that the Ceroc “ban” is an attempt by Ceroc and their insurers to protect themselves from any claim from an injured party. It means that if they are successful in this, an injured party will only be able to sue the perpetrator of the accident and not Ceroc and its staff (as well).

    From what has been said on this thread I doubt that this defence will hold water if the injured party and their lawyers can demonstrate that the “ban” has not been publicised and is not sensibly enforced...
    I am no lawyer, but I suspect that the ban does protect Ceroc, except where Ceroc actually runs a venue. Most of the venues are run by franchisees, and it is the franchisee that I believe may be the target of legal action if the worst happens.

    Having a ban and not enforcing it may put the franchisee into a worse legal position than taking the position that dancing has dangers, and it is the responsibility of all dancers to look after their own safety and of those around them, and the management reserves the right to eject or ban dangerous dancers, but cannot guarantee that it will have the resources to identify those.

  13. #53
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    Re: Are aerials officially banned at Ceroc?

    Are Utopia events covered by the ban?
    (I'm never quite sure of the relationship between Utopia and Ceroc)
    Love dance, will travel

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    Re: Are aerials officially banned at Ceroc?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    I am no lawyer, but I suspect that the ban does protect Ceroc, except where Ceroc actually runs a venue. Most of the venues are run by franchisees, and it is the franchisee that I believe may be the target of legal action if the worst happens.

    Having a ban and not enforcing it may put the franchisee into a worse legal position than taking the position that dancing has dangers, and it is the responsibility of all dancers to look after their own safety and of those around them, and the management reserves the right to eject or ban dangerous dancers, but cannot guarantee that it will have the resources to identify those.
    I believe that if your dog bites someone in your garden then you are liable for the injury, if you put up a sign that says 'Beware of the Dog' you are in a worse position as you are acknowledging that the dog you have is dangerous and therefore you are more negligent - not less.

    The whole idea of banning a complete sub-set of moves because some of them are potentially dangerous rather than to educate dancers to dance in a safe way shows Ceroc for what it is. A beginner-centric, pile them through the door organisation. There's nothing wrong with dumbing down so long as it is consistent... unless you are then also trying to claim that you are a serious dance organisation.

    No aerials*

    *except at the competitions, and cabarets of course so we can entertain the punters with an exciting dance spectacle and take lots of lovely money through the door

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    Re: Are aerials officially banned at Ceroc?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post

    It appears that Ceroc have officially banned aerials - they just haven't gone out of their way to tell people about it.

    .
    when they start telling people that are doing them might make a difference

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    I was a taxi dancer when the ban was first brought in. I wasn't told about the details of the ban, the policing of the ban, how to report or deal with dancers who committed the offence of doing an aerial move or even what the definition of an aerial move was by the venue manager or the franchisee. I was given no details or instructions at all, other than a laminated A4 sign placed on the reception desk.

    I hope this clarifies the way that Ceroc (Midlands at least) is feeding back the information to the people who are meant to be enforcing this

    I don't know what is or isn't officially classed as an aerial.

    So how are Taxis supposed to police it

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post



    However Arials have long been a signature part of Jive, it is an adrenaline activity. If people are willing to accept a small level of risk to themselves, and only themselves, I see no reason to change that.

    .
    Its the inconsiderate dance I have a major issue with, so, if we see someone doing dangerous move, what should we do

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidY View Post
    Are Utopia events covered by the ban?
    (I'm never quite sure of the relationship between Utopia and Ceroc)
    very good point David

    There are some interesting photo's on the Utopia thread from this weekend in London

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    B.O.G.O.F. fletch's Avatar
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    Re: Are aerials officially banned at Ceroc?

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    The whole idea of banning a complete sub-set of moves because some of them are potentially dangerous rather than to educate dancers to dance in a safe way shows Ceroc for what it is. A beginner-centric, pile them through the door organisation. There's nothing wrong with dumbing down so long as it is consistent... unless you are then also trying to claim that you are a serious dance organisation.


    In lots of cases, we discuss issues on this forum that the outside world doesn't even know have been discuss, so in some instances you can understand there ignorance on a given subject

    When you have Forum members, who are totally aware of the situation, and have no regard for the ruling, and continue flinging there partner around with no consideration for there fellow dances, you don't have any hope in trying to educate them allowing responsible people like you guy's to continue, who dance in a considerate way.


    some people are un educational, so who and how do you handle it.

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    Re: Are aerials officially banned at Ceroc?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    I am no lawyer, but I suspect that the ban does protect Ceroc, except where Ceroc actually runs a venue. Most of the venues are run by franchisees, and it is the franchisee that I believe may be the target of legal action if the worst happens.

    Having a ban and not enforcing it may put the franchisee into a worse legal position than taking the position that dancing has dangers #
    Too right!

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    I believe that if your dog bites someone in your garden then you are liable for the injury, if you put up a sign that says 'Beware of the Dog' you are in a worse position as you are acknowledging that the dog you have is dangerous and therefore you are more negligent - not less.


    It is a shame about the whole thing. An unusual but serious accident has triggered all this business and it would appear that action has been taken by some to cover themselves whilst leaving others more at risk.

    It would appear that nothing has been done yet to improve the dancers' awareness of safety generally, this would have been an ideal time to do this and would have gone part way to placate the more responsible who have had to give up part of their dancing experience.

    The key questions to ask about the action taken so far are -

    Is it a safer environment for the average dancer ? - It would appear not.
    Is any victim likely to be better off ? - Definitely not.
    Does it put the franchise owner more at risk ? - Possibly.
    Is there more confusion than before and more aggrieved individuals? - Possibly.

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    Registered User FirstMove's Avatar
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    Re: Are aerials officially banned at Ceroc?

    None of my local venues have announced a ban, put up any signs or made any attempt to change the contract I entered into when I became a member. Ceroc would seem to be in breach of contract if they tried to stop me doing aerials.

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    Re: Are aerials officially banned at Ceroc?

    Quote Originally Posted by FirstMove View Post
    None of my local venues have announced a ban, put up any signs or made any attempt to change the contract I entered into when I became a member. Ceroc would seem to be in breach of contract if they tried to stop me doing aerials.
    Which "Contract" ?

    The membership rules do not give you any rights except admittance to the ceroc venues. YOU have to comply to the membership rules as decided by Ceroc and these may be changed as long as they give you sufficient notice. It is like joining a club, they can change membership rules (within reason) and if you do not like it, then tough luck, no breach of contract and no money back.

    They can ban you (and do so legally if they can demonstrate that you are not playing by their rules).

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    Re: Are aerials officially banned at Ceroc?

    Quote Originally Posted by fletch View Post
    In lots of cases, we discuss issues on this forum that the outside world doesn't even know have been discuss, so in some instances you can understand there ignorance on a given subject

    When you have Forum members, who are totally aware of the situation, and have no regard for the ruling, and continue flinging there partner around with no consideration for there fellow dances, you don't have any hope in trying to educate them allowing responsible people like you guy's to continue, who dance in a considerate way.


    some people are un educational, so who and how do you handle it.
    We went to the Revolution Dance freestyle in Congleton this Saturday and had a WONDERFUL time Phil and Yuko We did a few mini aerials, but as it was pretty much a full house all night we didn't do any big lifts as I didn't feel there was to room to do them with complete safety. Instead when we 'corner danced' we did some lovely leans and deep drops and seducers. We hate the thought of inconsiderate dancing harming other people's pleasure.

    It would seem that as this Utopia event allowed aerials to be done without concern, that they were taking a more mature line. Allowing experienced dancers to exercise their discretion - BRAVO! At last, a glimmer of sense amongst all the madness

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