View Poll Results: going? competing?

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  • Going and competing!

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Thread: Midlands Champs 10th November 2007

  1. #41
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Midlands Champs 4th November

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Allsopp View Post
    Why would they have to do that?
    Beacsue that is the rule followed by ALL the main competitions .... NZ, Aussie, Blackpool ...... otherwise, why not stay at Intermediate year on year. Come on ... you've been on the circuit as long as me .... you MUST know the rules/ettiquette by now.

  2. #42
    Commercial Operator Mike Allsopp's Avatar
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    Re: Midlands Champs 4th November

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    Beacsue that is the rule followed by ALL the main competitions .... NZ, Aussie, Blackpool ...... otherwise, why not stay at Intermediate year on year. Come on ... you've been on the circuit as long as me .... you MUST know the rules/ettiquette by now.
    Hi Gus,

    Firstly, this is not NZ, OZ or even Blackpool.

    Secondly, I am not aware that there is any rule that stipulates someone cannot stay in the same category year in year out...but please enlighten me as really am happy to be corrected.

    Similarly we never kick anyone out of the Beginners class 'til they are happy to leave....

    Thirdly, etiquette and rules are two different things.

    Finally, and please don't take this wrong, but it's the Midlands Champs and WE set the rules, just as OZ, NZ and Blackpool do for their competitions - they are considered and hopefully well thought out.

    Anyone entering a 'Champs' category should be prepared to take on anyone else....you will win if you are the best! So does it matter if last years Champ is there.

    Federer won again this year but it didn't stop others trying!

    Please don't lose focus on what Christmas is all about - enjoyment and a happy time had by all.

    Mike
    Sledge Hammer....Trust me, I know what I'm doing!

  3. #43
    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Midlands Champs 4th November

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Allsopp View Post
    Hi Gus,

    Firstly, this is not NZ, OZ or even Blackpool.

    Secondly, I am not aware that there is any rule that stipulates someone cannot stay in the same category year in year out...but please enlighten me as really am happy to be corrected.
    It's generally the rule in Australia:

    Quote Originally Posted by CerocDance (Australia) 2007 competitor notes
    Trophy winners from previous Modern Jive Style events since the last Ceroc & Modern Jive Championships, or within one calendar year, whichever is the greater period, may remain in the category in which they won their trophy for that period. After that period they must move up to the next category (except for the Champions section – see later).
    It is also the case for Britrock - the rules for the intermediate category say:
    This section is for couples neither who have won an intermediate or better category at any modern jive competition.
    I believe Britrock is the only UK comp with an actual rule about this, however.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Allsopp
    Thirdly, etiquette and rules are two different things.
    Agreed. Even if the rules allow it, I would say there's a pretty strong feeling amongst competitors (judged both from speaking to people and from the times it's been discussed on the forum) that once you've won a major title at Intermediate, you should no longer compete at Intermediate at the same competition (i.e. you should move up to Advanced within 12 months).

    Finally, and please don't take this wrong, but it's the Midlands Champs and WE set the rules, just as OZ, NZ and Blackpool do for their competitions - they are considered and hopefully well thought out.
    I accept that it is your competition, and I even agree that I don't really think you should have a rule about it. But I do think actively encouraging last year's Intermediate/Advanced winners to stay in the same category is a mistake.

    Federer won again this year but it didn't stop others trying!
    Yes, but Federer is competing in the "Open" category. No-one is arguing that the open winners should not be allowed to defend their title.

  4. #44
    Registered User Spiky Steve's Avatar
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    Re: Midlands Champs 4th November

    Not that it affects me but I think free entry the the next level makes more sense. Perhaps the winners could help judge their previous category.

    Personally, I see the Advanced disapperaing across competitions at the moment and it makes it more and more daunting to enter intermediates or move up to the advanced which includes open.

    I would like to see intermediates for new competitors and if you place in any modern jive competition then you have to move up. This would mean advanced for real competitors and intermediate level to encourage people learning and having a go. Open would still be for the best.

    Without advanced level people will not move up to compete against the teachers and it means the new people do not really have much chance at intermediate.

    Steve



    Steve

  5. #45
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    Re: Midlands Champs 10th November 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Allsopp View Post

    Firstly, this is not NZ, OZ or even Blackpool.
    No it's the magnificent Midlands. I wonder why so many people have the impressions of the Midlands that they have.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Allsopp View Post
    Similarly we never kick anyone out of the Beginners class 'til they are happy to leave....
    This is not relevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Allsopp View Post
    Finally, and please don't take this wrong, but it's the Midlands Champs and WE set the rules, just as OZ, NZ and Blackpool do for their competitions - they are considered and hopefully well thought out.
    In your opinion I'm sure they are. It would appear that some people would not consider them to be well thought out though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Allsopp View Post
    Anyone entering a 'Champs' category should be prepared to take on anyone else....you will win if you are the best! So does it matter if last years Champ is there.
    You will stand a good chance of winning if you are the best in that category. If however there is not a level playing field then there really isn't any point in entering. Everyone needs to feel that it's fair. That they have a chance at winning. Why else would anyone spend good money on entering the contest?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Allsopp View Post
    Please don't lose focus on what Christmas is all about - enjoyment and a happy time had by all.
    Yeah OK.



    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post

    I accept that it is your competition, and I even agree that I don't really think you should have a rule about it. But I do think actively encouraging last year's Intermediate/Advanced winners to stay in the same category is a mistake.
    Yet again very well said by that man.



    Quote Originally Posted by Spiky Steve View Post

    Without advanced level people will not move up to compete against the teachers and it means the new people do not really have much chance at intermediate.
    Again I ask why would people pay to enter a competition that they know they just don't stand any chance of winning. It's hardly very encouraging.

    I guess it comes down to what kind of competition you want this Midlands one to be seen as. Is it a serious competition with serious rules and considerations? Something that will attract the serious competitors? Or is it simply a bit of fun so it doesn't really matter anyway type of deal. Don't get me wrong there isn't a right or wrong way. I just feel it's important that people know the score so they have a clear understanding and can decide if they want to be part of it or not.

  6. #46
    Commercial Operator Mike Allsopp's Avatar
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    Re: Midlands Champs 10th November 2007

    I really don't want to get into a protracted debate over this so I will reiterate the points I feel are relevant.

    1. The Midlands Champs rules are a straight 'lift' from the National Champs, so when I say they are well considered then that is what I mean.

    2. To my mind a 'level playing field' is surely where the rules are the same for all across each category in which case fairness is acheived. The competitors are judged on merit and the best couple on the day will win. It is also important to remember, last year was the first we ran, chances are there are some serious contenders who didn't come along in 2006 who may just take the challenge to last years winners - they are by no means guaranteed to hold onto their titles.

    3. As far as I can see very few competitions expressly prohibit the winners of a category from entering the same category again - certainly the National Ceroc Champs do not outlaw it. You will, however, see that we do prohibit couples in either the Intermediate or Open categories taking part in the Beginners Freestyle category.

    4. Feedback on last years Midlands Champs was extremely good with regard to the organisation and standard of entry and it was even compared favourably (on this forum) to the National event. There is no reason to expect it will not be the same or even better this year - certainly the number of bookings already received suggests that will be the case.

    5. The offer made to the category winners was nothing more than recognition of their previous acheivement - I am more than happy to be flexible and give them the option to choose free entry to that same category or the next level up if they so choose....but please, let's have them choose eh?
    Sledge Hammer....Trust me, I know what I'm doing!

  7. #47
    Registered User littlewiggle's Avatar
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    Re: Midlands Champs 10th November 2007

    Ok - it's getting nearer which means so is my birthday

    Perhaps a kind moderator could add a poll so we can see who is going and who will be competing? Pretty please

  8. #48
    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Midlands Champs 10th November 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by littlewiggle View Post
    Perhaps a kind moderator could add a poll so we can see who is going and who will be competing? Pretty please
    How's that?
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

  9. #49
    B.O.G.O.F. fletch's Avatar
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    Re: Midlands Champs 10th November 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    How's that?
    Flooding in

    Thanks ducasi, perhaps Mike could give us an update on the progress, I have heard Stoke has closed but i'm not sure about the champs ?


  10. #50
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Midlands Champs 10th November 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by fletch View Post
    I have heard Stoke has closed but i'm not sure about the champs ?
    Again? Stoke claims its 4th franchisee With Congleton sinking again (3 clubs failed there) makes the area sound like the Marie Celeste for dancing

  11. #51
    Senior Member rubyred's Avatar
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    Re: Midlands Champs 10th November 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by fletch View Post
    Flooding in


    Oh well looks like I am likely to win in all catagorys then...single handed as well
    if you love the life you live then you'll get a lot more done

  12. #52
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    Re: Midlands Champs 10th November 2007

    i'm gonna be there for the intermediates too- gotta get Britrock out the way first tho

  13. #53
    Commercial Operator Mike Allsopp's Avatar
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    Re: Midlands Champs 10th November 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by fletch View Post
    Flooding in

    Thanks ducasi, perhaps Mike could give us an update on the progress, I have heard Stoke has closed but i'm not sure about the champs ?

    Hi Fletch,

    I think Gus's comment is quite valid. I've taken a break from Stoke as a regular weekly venue and there and will review in the New Year.

    I am pleased to reassure you that the Champs is still going ahead and I'm getting enqiries and booking from all over. I'm really looking forward to it and hope it will be as successful or more so than last year.

    Mike
    Sledge Hammer....Trust me, I know what I'm doing!

  14. #54
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Midlands Champs 10th November 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Allsopp View Post
    I am pleased to reassure you that the Champs is still going ahead and I'm getting enqiries and booking from all over. I'm really looking forward to it and hope it will be as successful or more so than last year.

    Mike
    I'm glad dancing continues at Kings Hall. Its one of the outstanding venue sin the UK ... shame that Stokies don't want to dance (with some noticeable exceptions).

  15. #55
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    Re: Midlands Champs 10th November 2007

    A shame that this is another big clash with a Camber weekender, as there'll be a few title holders at that. I'd like to try the Midlands champs sometime, I've assumed it has the friendliness of the Scottish champs, but a lot closer to home.

    Greg

  16. #56
    Commercial Operator Mike Allsopp's Avatar
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    Re: Midlands Champs 10th November 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    I'm glad dancing continues at Kings Hall. Its one of the outstanding venue sin the UK ... shame that Stokies don't want to dance (with some noticeable exceptions).
    Gus,

    I'm sure from your own experience at the Kings Hall that it is a fantastic venue that really needs the supportof local dancers.

    Like yourself I've given it every opportunity to work and perhaps a break until the New Year will enable us to come up with something.

    Until then let's just look forward to the Champs next month.

    Mike
    Sledge Hammer....Trust me, I know what I'm doing!

  17. #57
    B.O.G.O.F. fletch's Avatar
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    Re: Midlands Champs 10th November 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    Again? Stoke claims its 4th franchisee With Congleton sinking again (3 clubs failed there) makes the area sound like the Marie Celeste for dancing

    I wonder why ?

    Quote Originally Posted by rubyred View Post
    Oh well looks like I am likely to win in all catagorys then...single handed as well
    who needs men ?

    Quote Originally Posted by DD+ View Post
    i'm gonna be there for the intermediates too- gotta get Britrock out the way first tho
    who are you competing with ? is my lovely SWAS coming up? you can stop at mine if you wan't to

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Allsopp View Post
    Hi Fletch,

    I think Gus's comment is quite valid. I've taken a break from Stoke as a regular weekly venue and there and will review in the New Year.

    I am pleased to reassure you that the Champs is still going ahead and I'm getting enqiries and booking from all over. I'm really looking forward to it and hope it will be as successful or more so than last year.

    Mike
    Good luck

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    I'm glad dancing continues at Kings Hall. Its one of the outstanding venue sin the UK ... shame that Stokies don't want to dance (with some noticeable exceptions:whistle.

    This might be a controversial thing to say

    you know i'm not one to hold back, so hear goes.

    the husband and wife duo from that neck of the woods I believe would make a success of this venue, but not sure how it all works (Franchise) thingy.

    Just my opinion

  18. #58
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Midlands Champs 10th November 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by fletch View Post
    This might be a controversial thing to say

    you know i'm not one to hold back, so hear goes.

    the husband and wife duo from that neck of the woods I believe would make a success of this venue, but not sure how it all works (Franchise) thingy.

    Just my opinion
    They are welcome to try. It does seem so easy. 1 million plus target market, superb venues, strong line dancing and rock n roll presence .... it SHOULD work ... but some very experienced people have tried and so far all have failed.

  19. #59
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    Re: Midlands Champs 10th November 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Allsopp View Post

    3. As far as I can see very few competitions expressly prohibit the winners of a category from entering the same category again - certainly the National Ceroc Champs do not outlaw it. You will, however, see that we do prohibit couples in either the Intermediate or Open categories taking part in the Beginners Freestyle category.
    Mike Ive stayed out of this so far, but its clear to me that you have shot yourself in the foot with the above qoute!

    To an advanced dancer especially a very experienced advanced dancer an Intermediate is like a beginner in the same way as a beginner is to an intermediate, so the same rule should apply ( the fact that they don't in any Ceroc Champs is an oversite in my view)

    I dont compte but if I did I would stear well clear of any competition where the winners from last year were able to compete in the same catagory again.

    They have so many psychological advantages that they would be very unlikely to win unless they make a terrible mistake ( which does happen!)

    Its a bit like putting a lightweight boxer up against a heavyweight which is why in that sport the rules forbid it! (cos the little guy always gets hurt)

    [quote=Mike Allsopp;392342
    5. The offer made to the category winners was nothing more than recognition of their previous acheivement - I am more than happy to be flexible and give them the option to choose free entry to that same category or the next level up if they so choose....but please, let's have them choose eh?[/quote]

    You are asking some to choose ( pardon me for this DS !) Right Over easy . Some will but some wont.

    You dont know until they enter.

    Of course what could happen is that the audiance could always take the matter into their own hands and influence the performance of the dancers and opinion of the judges that way. (that did happen at the national champs)

  20. #60
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Midlands Champs 10th November 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by Mac View Post
    Mike Ive stayed out of this so far, but its clear to me that you have shot yourself in the foot with the above qoute!
    From three months ago? Good self-control you've got

    Quote Originally Posted by Mac View Post
    To an advanced dancer especially a very experienced advanced dancer an Intermediate is like a beginner in the same way as a beginner is to an intermediate, so the same rule should apply ( the fact that they don't in any Ceroc Champs is an oversite in my view)
    So take it up with the Champs organisers. Or are you seriously suggesting that the Ceroc Midlands champs have different sets of rules to the Ceroc Champs? Coz that'd be really nuts, IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mac View Post
    I dont compte but if I did I would stear well clear of any competition where the winners from last year were able to compete in the same catagory again.
    What, even the Showcase and Open?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mac View Post
    They have so many psychological advantages that they would be very unlikely to win unless they make a terrible mistake ( which does happen!)
    I think you meant "likely"? But even so, I disagree - do you have any evidence?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mac View Post
    Of course what could happen is that the audiance could always take the matter into their own hands and influence the performance of the dancers and opinion of the judges that way. (that did happen at the national champs)
    Again, do you have any evidence? Or is this just random rumour-ing?

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