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Thread: Hypermobility joints discussion

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    Re: You Tube Dance videos

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    [Rereading that, it looks a bit snide, which it certainly isn't meant to be. Oleg was part of a Cirque documentary I've seen, and he actually seems a really nice guy and very protective of his partner. But the flyers are tiny and hyperflexible, so they are always going to be at more risk of injury than he is, given the kind of moves they do].
    If the flyer has actual hypermobility of the joints - the risk of injury is ever present - even when not performing. The upside is that when a joint is hypermobile you are unlikely to damage tendons or ligaments. However you will put a lot of wear and tear and damage to the muscles and joints involved

    Moved from the "You Tube Dance videos" thread - DavidJames
    Last edited by David Bailey; 3rd-July-2007 at 07:30 AM.

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    Cheeky by nature Little Monkey's Avatar
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    Re: You Tube Dance videos

    Quote Originally Posted by Yliander View Post
    If the flyer has actual hypermobility of the joints - the risk of injury is ever present - even when not performing. The upside is that when a joint is hypermobile you are unlikely to damage tendons or ligaments. However you will put a lot of wear and tear and damage to the muscles and joints involved
    Actually, that's wrong. People who are actually diagnosed with hypermobility have weaker tendons and ligaments than people with normal joints:

    Connective tissue proteins such as collagen give the body its intrinsic toughness. When they are differently formed, the results are mainly felt in the "moving parts" - the joints, muscles, tendons, ligaments - which are laxer and more fragile than is the case for most people. The result is joint laxity with hypermobility and with it comes vulnerability to the effects of injury.

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    Re: You Tube Dance videos

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Monkey View Post
    Actually, that's wrong. People who are actually diagnosed with hypermobility have weaker tendons and ligaments than people with normal joints:
    the tendons and ligaments are weaker - which allows the extended mobility - but creates injuries when then don't behave as they should.

    i was diagnosed many years ago with Hypermobility in both my ankles and elbows - elbows don't pose too many issues - ankles are damn dangerous - and has taken much work to strength the surrounding and supporting muscles to compensate so I no longer randomly fall over

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    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: You Tube Dance videos

    Quote Originally Posted by Yliander View Post
    i was diagnosed many years ago with Hypermobility in both my ankles and elbows - elbows don't pose too many issues - ankles are damn dangerous - and has taken much work to strength the surrounding and supporting muscles to compensate so I no longer randomly fall over
    I have slight hypermobility in the knees; it's not a problem as long as I make sure it's the muscles that are controlling the range of motion rather than letting the tendons go to their full range of motion. If I'm lazy and just let the joint/tendons take the strain, I certainly feel it in the knee for a few days.

    Purely going on my own experiences, the problem for a flyer doing the Cirque moves is going to be that with some of the them (I'm thinking particularly of the 'death-dive' from overhead handstand) it's going to require essentially impossible amounts of strength to control the deceleration using muscle. So you're basically forced into relying on the tendons. Which I don't think goes very well with hypermobility.

    Incidentally, my feeling was that if you did let the tendons take the strain (rather than muscle), so that the joint hyperextended, then the tendon ended up getting stretched slightly. Which meant it became more likely to hyperextend in the future - a vicious circle... Does that tally with your understanding?

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    Re: You Tube Dance videos

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    I have slight hypermobility in the knees; it's not a problem as long as I make sure it's the muscles that are controlling the range of motion rather than letting the tendons go to their full range of motion. If I'm lazy and just let the joint/tendons take the strain, I certainly feel it in the knee for a few days.

    Purely going on my own experiences, the problem for a flyer doing the Cirque moves is going to be that with some of the them (I'm thinking particularly of the 'death-dive' from overhead handstand) it's going to require essentially impossible amounts of strength to control the deceleration using muscle. So you're basically forced into relying on the tendons. Which I don't think goes very well with hypermobility.

    Incidentally, my feeling was that if you did let the tendons take the strain (rather than muscle), so that the joint hyperextended, then the tendon ended up getting stretched slightly. Which meant it became more likely to hyperextend in the future - a vicious circle... Does that tally with your understanding?
    Thats pretty much it - you have to learn to use the muscles to control the movement of the joint.

    Not sure about stetching tendons /liagments - but I know that I can do a lot of damage to my ankles with out the tendons/ligaments being overly bothered - the muscles however have a different opinion of matters. My right ankle which is my slightly more temperamental ankle - has a build up of scaring in the muscles around the joint due to damage over the years - luckly it's only minor and doesn't restrict movement.

    to protect my ankles I do regular strengthening exercises for the muscles in and around my ankle and anytime learning aerials strap ankles to prevent them being able to go too far sideways

    on an entertaining note - it's always fun to watch a physio/OT's face the first time they work on my ankles - even after being advised that that they are hypermobile! hehehehe

    and the way that flyer bends I'm actually thinking she is missing some joints altogether!!

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    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: You Tube Dance videos

    Quote Originally Posted by Yliander View Post
    and the way that flyer bends I'm actually thinking she is missing some joints altogether!!
    She's also a flyer in a group adagio performance (in Quidam). So it's not one guy lifting her, it's several. With the positions they put her in (and the way they move her between positions), it really looks like she has no hip joints at all (or they are permanently dislocated). Impressive in the context of the routine, but looks really unhealthy at the same time.

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    Re: You Tube Dance videos

    Quote Originally Posted by Yliander View Post
    much work to strength the surrounding and supporting muscles to compensate so I no longer randomly fall over
    I did that by reducing alcohol consumption!

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    Re: Hypermobility joints discussion

    I am hypermobile in my pelvis and hips, my knees, my wrists, my jaw (oh yes cue the jokes now-I've never heard them before) my fingers and probably owing to the dislocated toe happening frequently, my toes and feet too- hence my extreme reluctance to do drops with joe public. I have terrible problems with my joints as the bones rub against each other due to the extended movement range. It can be quite worrying walking along and hearing your joints click in and out. Dislocation is a huge problem for people who are hypermobile. I spent a week in hospital being diagnosed and was told I had to build up all the muscles around my joints so that they would hold the joints firm. Unfortunately owing to the physio programme lasting over an hour each day I find it extremely difficult to fit this in.
    Last edited by dance cat; 3rd-July-2007 at 07:32 PM. Reason: wonky spelling

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    Registered User Beowulf's Avatar
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    Re: Hypermobility joints discussion

    it's elbows and shoulders for me..

    Used to dislocate my shoulders when i slept if I rolled over badly. As I've gotten older it's not so pronounced. I still occasionally get into a pickle with my arms.. and can sicken people with my crazy arm knotting thing..

    I still wake up every now and again my arms in "odd" positions.. usually scaring me in the process as (a) it's gone to sleep and (b) I think it's someone elses

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    Registered User Freya's Avatar
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    Re: Hypermobility joints discussion

    Ok beware of little physio lecture coming!!!! Sorry!

    The Reason that people with hypermobility have problem with injuries comes down to various reasons.

    The ligaments that hold the joints together are lax. this means that while they do not have more give (Ligaments have a little elasticity but not much, tendon's have even less.) they allow the joint more movement. There is also sometimes a slight difference in bony surfaces

    In the joints of the body there are 2 joint end of range (EoR) feels - Boney and soft tissue. Boney is a hard block at EoR and Soft tissue tends to be a springy resistance. Take the Knee for example which is a hinge joint - Normally With your knee straight if you physically try to push it any further you come against a hard resistance, when you bend it its soft and springly at the EoR as the bulk of the hamstrings and calf prevents the knee going any further.

    In hypermobility the bony surfaces of the knee are sometimes slightly different. The person will have a smaller patella for example. So when you straighten the knee the EoR still has the same feel hard and bony but there is more movement and the ligaments because of their laxity allow it.

    The shoulders are slightly different as they are a ball and socket joint and there is little bony mass holding the joint in place and this is how it differs from the hip joint in which the ball (head of the Femure) is encased completely in the socket (acetabulum of the pelvis). In the shoulder it is the ligaments and the muscles that hold the joint together. In the case of hypermobility it is the ligaments that allow the extra movement of the shoulder. in the hip there is less movement but a ligament ataching the head to the acetabulum and making up part of the socket that keeps the ball in the socket. if these are lax then the hip is allowed greateer movement and more prone to dislocation.

    The reasons for injury are vast. You risk damaging the tendons of the muscles not necesarily the ligaments as it is the tendons that attach the muscle to bone. Tendons are extreamly in-elastic. This is so that when the muscle contracts and relax's movement is prouced at the joints, if the tendons were also elastic then they would just stretch against the bone and not produce any movement.

    I am getting to the point honestly.

    So if the joint has more movement than normal then you can risk strtching the tendon and over the long-term can damage the tendon and risk more movement as the tendon will be permantly on stretch. If the muscle is working then the tension produced on the tendon is quite strong so if there is then a sudden injury where the joint is pushed to the EoR then it can seriously damage the tendon as it can rupture or tear slightly away from the bone.

    The ligaments while already lax can be damaged the same as in normal joints. If you twist your ankle, go over it, then the allowance of movemnet is greater so there is less risk of serious damage but if you go beyond that range then you still risk injuring the ligaments.

    The other thing is that the joints are less stable so the risk of going over your ankle, twisting your knee, dislocating the hip, shoulder is greater to start with. So the likelyhood of repetative injury waekening the ligaments and tendons is greater.

    To gain the stability of normal joints then the muscles around the joints need to be strengthened and this takes time, determination and motivation.

    Hope this explains some things!?!

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    Registered User cms's Avatar
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    Re: Hypermobility joints discussion

    couldnt have put it better myself!!!!!

    C xx

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    Registered User Nessiemonster's Avatar
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    Re: Hypermobility joints discussion

    Although I've not been formally diagnosed, anyone who's seen me 'straighten' my arm will know I'm hypermobile! I have hypermobile joints at my shoulders, elbows, wrists, fingers and thumbs. My back is also extremely bendy. My lower limbs seem less affected.

    For the most part this doesn't seem to cause me any problems, yet, and I've never dislocated anything. But it does impact on my dancing in that my shoulder girdle is unstable and it's very hard for me to hold a 'frame' and remain connected whilst dancing, as there's still so much movement! Awareness and practice is helping me improve...

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