Absence of Grades in Ceroc/MJ: Should there be more structure?

[Andy McGregor]

I'd like MJ to be more respecteded as a dance form.

I think that this is a whole different thing which deserves it's own thread. I've got to do some work now. Perhaps DJ would like to start the thread. And maybe we could have a Poll asking people how "respected" they think Modern Jive currently is in the greater dance world. Five point scale would be nice.

See you later, work becons

[TA Guy]

In the Aussie forum Robert Winter had this to say about naysayers - and I think he sums it up very well

"Well, at the end of the day if you choose to look for the negative you can find it in any statement/institution. I for one am getting a little tired of having to bend over backwards to assuage peoples negativities and various chips (please note I am not aiming this comment at you, just at the general sniping and bitching that on occasion seems to pervade dance)..."

*shrug* So he's getting a lot of complaints and negative feedback. I wouldn't have thought that was necessarily an argument in favour of the system

We can all selectively get quotes, here's one from the same forum;
"it produces some unwanted negativity as some people with blue cards will not dance with those they see in the non-IA lines during freestyling"
OK, obviously it's not a system for mass producing hotshots but that is not something I would like to see propagate.


I've read the two main threads about the card system on the Australian forum. I guess at first glance, they seem mostly in favour, but when you consider who the posters are (I.E. Not a single person who has been put off by the card system will have posted, and like here, a lot of 'keen' or experienced dancers, plus teachers, honestly of course, defending their system posting) I can't say I came away thinking any differently.

[ducasi]

For example, we could have something like this:

1. You should have the musical beat, timing and rhythm
2. You should be able to balance when dancing without requiring your partner's support.
3. You should have the ability to lead / follow the lead.
4. You can do a standard return without travelling.
5. Guys leading and girls following the more difficult intermediate moves.
6. Good posture (straight backs and head and shoulders back).
7. You should have good hand/finger/arm tension, without yanking or gripping your partner.
8. You should be competent in leading or following the Intermediate Routine taught in class when dancing with a Ceroc teacher.

None of that would be controversial, surely?

If I can come up with something like that in 2 minutes, I'm sure a proper dance organisation can come up with something much better given the time and will.

What would this grade you as? Intermediate? Advanced? Advanced Intermediate?

Points 5 and 8 clash – If you can do point 5, point 8 shouldn't be a hassle. Thing is point 5 asks for the ability to do the harder intermediate moves, while most the other criteria seem to be aimed at someone with relatively little or even no intermediate experience.

Think I'd fail on point 4. My own turns and returns are poor. Not very good at balance, so would probably fail on point 2 too.

[Yliander]

What would this grade you as? Intermediate? Advanced? Advanced Intermediate?

assuming this is for a UK blue card - thenit would be aimed at higher level intermediates

[ducasi]

Almost all of the "anti" comments I've read can be summarised as "I'm scared".

I'm not scared of assessment. I've asked teachers to comment on my dancing, I've done and will be doing more competitions.

I don't think that standardised "grading" is the way to go.

I think that a voluntary standardised assessment and feedback system, which would be positively-promoted as an optional "career track", would be a useful addtion to the current system. Not a replacement, not a segregation, but something extra.

I think that a voluntary non-standardised assessment and feedback system would be a useful addition.

But we already have one of those – it's called "ask your teacher" or "ask a taxi dancer".

How many grades does the Aussie system have? One or two? Not much of a grading system really. If you want grades you'd really want to have finer levels than that surely?

The other day I was asked by a girl "how long have you been dancing?" It wasn't a conversational gambit, it was the best way of finding out "are you worth my while dancing with?" I guess in Australia she'd have asked "what grade are you on?"

There's no benefit worth the alienation that would be caused by adopting a grading system. (IMHO.)

[MartinHarper]

How many grades does the Aussie system have? One or two? Not much of a grading system really. If you want grades you'd really want to have finer levels than that surely?

How come?

[ducasi]

How come?

How many different levels of medals do you get in ballroom?

[Yliander]

I'm not scared of assessment. I've asked teachers to comment on my dancing, I've done and will be doing more competitions.

I don't think that standardised "grading" is the way to go.


I think that a voluntary non-standardised assessment and feedback system would be a useful addition.

But we already have one of those – it's called "ask your teacher" or "ask a taxi dancer".

non-standardised - is very in consistent. And as to asking a taxi dancer - while the majority of them are competent dancers and do a great job - they are not trained teachers .....

How many grades does the Aussie system have? One or two? Not much of a grading system really. If you want grades you'd really want to have finer levels than that surely?

why? there is beginners and intermediates as you have in the uk - the cards introduce 2 extra layers to that - which is 4 - how many do you want?

The other day I was asked by a girl "how long have you been dancing?" It wasn't a conversational gambit, it was the best way of finding out "are you worth my while dancing with?" I guess in Australia she'd have asked "what grade are you on?"

never been asked what grade/card I had when dancing in Aus.

Or she could be wondering if you were up for that track - I know I wouldn't want to dance to something like Roxanne with a 2 week beginner....

[Yliander]

How many different levels of medals do you get in ballroom?

So now you want to become like ballroom.....

[robd]

How come?

Close eyes, lie back and think of England. At least that's what ******* told me.

[ducasi]

So now you want to become like ballroom.....

Well the folks who want MJ to become a "respectable" dance seem to. Some people seem to think that all the medals are a useful device to help ballroom dancers learn.

And if it's really about finding out how good you are then only two gradings is a bit useless. Once you've passed the top "gold" grade how do you find out how good you are? If you're no-where near the Intermediate/Advanced grade, how do you get feedback?

Say I'm a beginner of 6 weeks, shouldn't I grade to decide whether I'm ready to move up?

Let's see...

• beginner's grade – ability to stand up without falling over.
• improver's grade – likely to not do injury, ready for the intermediate.
• intermediate grade – can actually do the intermediate class.
• intermediate/advanced – aka hot-shot – doesn't do the intermediate class anymore.
• advanced – tells the teacher how to teach the intermediate class.
• deity – whose presence makes the teacher unable to teach the class.

[David Bailey]

What would this grade you as? Intermediate? Advanced? Advanced Intermediate?

DavidJamesMediate

I dunno - I'm not trying to design a detailed system here, just trying to discuss the principles / attitudes. If we get started on the nitty-gritty of implementation, we''re into a different topic really.

Big Picture Man, that's me

Think I'd fail on point 4. My own turns and returns are poor. Not very good at balance, so would probably fail on point 2 too.

Then I wouldn't give you your DavidJamesCertificate, so

But, as an example, wouldn't you agree that working on weak areas (as identified by objective assessment) might help improve your dancing? And "passing a test" is always a good incentive for such improvements?

It just seems to me that systems with assessments seem to be systems which take quality a bit more seriously than systems without assessments - and which, at the end, produce a better standard of dancers.

[David Bailey]

Well the folks who want MJ to become a "respectable" dance seem to.

No, not at all. AT is a respectable dance, there's no assessments there - but AT has a far-more developed body of Good Practice (sorry, I'm on an ITIL course, I'm in jargon mode at the moment ), which takes the place of such assessment.

I just want a bit more structure than "Oh, you've done 6 weeks, you're an intermediate now, bye", which seems to be the case in 95% of MJ venues.

Some people seem to think that all the medals are a useful device to help ballroom dancers learn.

I'm not sure, I don't know enough to comment on that.

Say I'm a beginner of 6 weeks, shouldn't I grade to decide whether I'm ready to move up?

Possibly - again, we're debating implementation rather than principles. I'd suggest "How to implementing a UK-wide assessment system" is a separate discussion to "Whether to implement a UK-wide assessment system".

Let's see...

• beginner's grade – ability to stand up without falling over.
• improver's grade – likely to not do injury, ready for the intermediate.
• intermediate grade – can actually do the intermediate class.
• intermediate/advanced – aka hot-shot – doesn't do the intermediate class anymore.
• advanced – tells the teacher how to teach the intermediate class.
• deity – whose presence makes the teacher unable to teach the class.

I prefer the Dick Crum version personally

[ducasi]

Then I wouldn't give you your DavidJamesCertificate, so

But, as an example, wouldn't you agree that working on weak areas (as identified by objective assessment) might help improve your dancing? And "passing a test" is always a good incentive for such improvements?

But the problem here is that in your "DavidJamesCertificate" you've subjectively decided that ability to do returns without travelling is a necessary condition to reach "DavidJamesMediate" level. However, I've decided that for me it's not important, I'm doing fine on every other aspect – maybe even at "DavidJamesAdvanced" level.

Because of this subjective assessment I am refused entry to certain classes and workshops which I am capable of doing.

Passing an arbitrary test is not motivation for me.

[ducasi]

No, not at all. AT is a respectable dance, there's no assessments there - but AT has a far-more developed body of Good Practice (sorry, I'm on an ITIL course, I'm in jargon mode at the moment ), which takes the place of such assessment.

Huh?

Does this "Good Practice" related to how the dance is taught, or how it is danced?

If MJ had similar "Good Practice", would you drop your call for graded assessments?

From what I've read, AT teaching very variable – wouldn't standardised grades and assessments improve both the teaching and learning of AT?

[David Bailey]

But the problem here is that in your "DavidJamesCertificate" you've subjectively decided that ability to do returns without travelling is a necessary condition to reach "DavidJamesMediate" level.

Ah yes, but I'd hope that Ceroc (or whoever) might put a bit more thought into creating an objective system than the two minutes I spent. Plus, they're professionals and I'm an ungifted amateur.

Because of this subjective assessment I am refused entry to certain classes and workshops which I am capable of doing.

You would be "refused access" (or, more likely, asked for a quick 5-minute pre-class dance to prepare you) to all DavidJamesIntermediate Classes, that's all. Which you probably wouldn't want to do, as you weren't bothered enough to spend 5 minutes dancing with me in the first place. You cad.

[David Bailey]

Does this "Good Practice" related to how the dance is taught, or how it is danced?

Taught, and therefore danced

If MJ had similar "Good Practice", would you drop your call for graded assessments?

Yeah, probably - but that'd mean redesigning the entire dance (and the business model) from the bottom up, to focus far more on technique. And that's just never going to happen - in fact, I think that very problem has been discussed in other threads recently.

It's far less of a step change to introduce some minimal level of voluntary assessment.

From what I've read, AT teaching very variable – wouldn't standardised grades and assessments improve both the teaching and learning of AT?

The quality of teaching (i.e. imparting knowledge) is variable. The subject itself, however, has a wealth of technique and practice, which gives it the depth that MJ lacks.

[ducasi]

The quality of teaching (i.e. imparting knowledge) is variable. The subject itself, however, has a wealth of technique and practice, which gives it the depth that MJ lacks.

Maybe this is why you think assessments are necessary in MJ and I don't – I have been taught to dance MJ employing some of the wealth of technique and practice which MJ has, but most teaching of it lacks.

But you didn't answer the question – would standardised grades and assessments improve the teaching and learning of AT?

[David Bailey]

But you didn't answer the question – would standardised grades and assessments improve the teaching and learning of AT?

Sorry, I missed the question (!) - ummm, I dunno.

Probably not - there's too much variation, and no centralised body AFAIK, so it just wouldn't work for AT. AT-ers are all too fiercely individualistic IMO to knuckle under to that sort of discipline. AT is more of an individual journey than a group experience in my view, but I could simply be projecting here.

Anyway, MJ standards are (largely) driven by Ceroc - so if Ceroc decide to implement something, there's a good chance it'll be implemented or copied by others.

[NZ Monkey]

*shrug* So he's getting a lot of complaints and negative feedback. I wouldn't have thought that was necessarily an argument in favour of the system

Negative feedback like ceroc is getting from some corners for not having any defined standards of note beyond a 6 week experience guideline? This card system wasn’t always in place and we have to assume it was instigated for a reason

The point I was trying to make wasn't that the card system is much better than the current UK system (Obviously I think it is personally, but that wasn't the point I was trying to make). I was trying to point out that the developers of the system have been trying their best to assure their customers that it's entirely optional and will have very few ramifications if you choose not to run with it. Those ramifications are mostly about tricky routines and the very occasional hard workshop from my understanding, and I think most of the people who are willing to subject themselves to those are happy to have some kind of assessment.

If there are a tiny minority who have a grievance, so what? You can't please everyone all the time. I think you'll find that the majority of people don't care either way about a system of measuring your progress if it's opt in, and most of the remainder think it's a good idea. It sounds like a winning idea to me. Admittedly this is based on my personal experience only which is probably a little different from yours.

For the record, I’m not sure how realistic it would be for Ceroc UK to employ this kind of thing anyway. I don’t think the business is set up to handle it very well and it would be a nightmare to monitor in the long term. As DavidJames pointed out, change is scary and Ceroc HQ can’t be everywhere, with every franchisee and every teacher to ensure a smooth and relatively painless transition. If they wanted such a system at all that is. Besides, they’re in the business of making money off beginners* – why would they want to mess with a good thing? This is about the implementation though rather than the concept. To parrot DavidJames again; lets keep this a big picture discussion 

*I’m not saying that’s somehow wrong, just that there is little incentive for them to add a little more focus to the more experienced dancers.