Absence of Grades in Ceroc/MJ: Should there be more structure?

[Yliander]

If we're talking about exclusivity and such, my feeling is that fixed partners (as a group) make more of a difference than grading would, particularly if people are fixing to avoid the less capable dancers. One of the benefits of grading is that it should reduce the amount of people fixing for that reason.

Absolutely it also reduces the number of people who sit out a class to avoid those with out the basic skills in an more advanced class

[TA Guy]

Organisers should offer classes based on the people attending. I would expect that the majority of classes would continue to have no specific entry requirements besides a willingness to learn. Given that there are beginner-specific classes at many weekenders, where experienced dancers are plainly not welcome, I don't see that this is wildly unfair.

I don't know where you get the 'plainly not welcome' thing from All, and I mean 'all', beginner classes at weekenders I have attended, I've found people happy to have others who know what they are doing. I'm certainly happy when it happens to me and I'm up the proverbial creek without a water transference device.

If we're talking about exclusivity and such, my feeling is that fixed partners (as a group) make more of a difference than grading would, particularly if people are fixing to avoid the less capable dancers. One of the benefits of grading is that it should reduce the amount of people fixing for that reason.

Is there a problem with fixed partners at weekenders? If there is, that's prolly the subject of a different thread. I offer it as a solution to those who feel their experience is denigrated by taking part in the big teach.
I don't know whether grading would reduce the amount of fixing. I imagine some use fixed partners for exactly the opposite reason as well, they feel they are not good enough.
In any event, grading would certainly reduce the number taking part as a whole I guess.

[TA Guy]

you mention competitions here as a way of having your dancing graded and I have to say that they are a poor way to have your dancing graded

• a teacher is not actually dancing with the person so very difficult to actually assess their skill accurately
• requires a dance partner
• not everyone wants to put themselves on stage for the sort of dissection that can come a competitors way
• Judges only get to watch each couple for a matter of seconds
• There is a large subjective element to competition
• Competition dancing is a different beast to
  social dancing
• Little opportunity for personal feedback

As to Jango – not readily available to all and Private Lessons are expensive

The point is, you can get yourself graded if you want.

You can get yourself graded at a competition,
Or,
If you want explicit feedback pay the one off fee of £40 or whatever it is to have a teacher give you one of those one to one 'lets look at your dance and see where you can improve' hours at a weekender. Once you know, away you go and find the classes, workshops, DVD's, private lessons to fix what you think is wrong. It's not difficult and contrary to what you say, it's not expensive.
If good teachers are local to you, you could ask them. It might be cheaper!!!
Ask friends!!!

Lots of ways to get grading and/or feedback rather than forcing everybody to go thru compulsory grading.

[David Bailey]

I doubt that, but I can't speak for others. Lets face it, we already have grading...

We don't, we really don't - we have access to verbal feedback, if we look hard enough, and spend enough money on it. We definitely don't have easy access to a standardised and objective assessment system in MJ in the UK.

at private lessons, Jango, competitions etc.

So that's about 1% of dancers - not exactly what I'd call "easy access".

This is not about the grading aspect so much, more about the making something that is already voluntary and available, compulsory, and all the negative aspects contained within that.

No-one - no-one has suggested a mandatory system.

[Yliander]

The point is, you can get yourself graded if you want.

as you can with the carding/assessment system in Australia – it’s an opt in plan through which you get access to some extras – kinda like frequent flyers points

You can get yourself graded at a competition,

a very arbitrary grade and a lot of people who do cards/assessments in Aus have no desire to compete they just want some simple skill/technique based goals to focus on in their social classes

Or,
If you want explicit feedback pay the one off fee of £40 or whatever it is to have a teacher give you one of those one to one 'lets look at your dance and see where you can improve' hours at a weekender. Once you know, away you go and find the classes, workshops, DVD's, private lessons to fix what you think is wrong. It's not difficult and contrary to what you say, it's not expensive.

I’m sorry but I have accessed all of these ways to improve my dancing including local teachers and friends and they can very quickly add up to being expensive – especially if all you are wanting is a general level of competence

and I'm not sure where weekenders fit into this discussion as they are one off events so hardly the place one would use on a regular basis for card/assessments...

Lots of ways to get grading and/or feedback rather than forcing everybody to go thru compulsory grading.

WHICH bit of OPT IN do you not understand? Let me know and I’ll see if I can explain it for you

[TA Guy]

No-one - no-one has suggested a mandatory system.

WHICH bit of OPT IN do you not understand? Let me know and I’ll see if I can explain it for you

No need to get defensive.

Of course your not pushing for mandatory opt-in, all you want is for a number of classes at weekenders to made unavailable to the opt-outers, a number of workshops to be made unavailable to opt-outers, and some class lessons to be split down the middle where opt-outers don't get to dance with their peers... and the inclusivity that's contributed in a big-way to the huge and fast growth of MJ ? Collateral damage obviously..... and who knows what else down the line.
Course it's opt-in. It's completely voluntary. LOL. Not a two-tier system at all. You sure you guys don't work for New Labour ?

We don't, we really don't - we have access to verbal feedback, if we look hard enough, and spend enough money on it. We definitely don't have easy access to a standardised and objective assessment system in MJ in the UK.

So that's about 1% of dancers - not exactly what I'd call "easy access".

Standard and objective: of course not. MJ isn't standardized to any great degree, and you'll never get objective feedback, it's always subjective to a certain degree, I honestly don't think the type of grading being discussed here will affect that one way or the other.

I dunno about this 1% figure you pulled out of the air for competitions tho, are competitions restricted then ? I thought anybody could enter at least some of the levels. That sounds more like 100% to me.

a very arbitrary grade and a lot of people who do cards/assessments in Aus have no desire to compete they just want some simple skill/technique based goals to focus on in their social classes

I’m sorry but I have accessed all of these ways to improve my dancing including local teachers and friends and they can very quickly add up to being expensive – especially if all you are wanting is a general level of competence

I'm sorry, I thought we were talking about grading here, not life long improvement courses. Of course if you take the fast improvers track from beginner to advanced super-dancer, it's gonna cost money. With or without grading.

You keep mixing grading with improvement, they are not the same thing. Improvement costs money, and is positive. Relative to that, grading costs very little, but has big negative drawbacks if any aspect of it impacts on the social side of MJ. (IMO).




We all like colourful certficates and medals, of course I don't have anything against anyone going and getting themselves graded. I wouldn't have a problem with grading for some suitable workshops. And if anybody wants to add grading to their private lessons, no worries.
I would have a problem with grading when it starts to impact on the social side of dancing, that's weekly classes, weekenders etc.
No Thank You.

[MartinHarper]

Is there a problem with fixed partners at weekenders?

You've come out strongly against having two rotating lines at a class. It seems to me that having one rotating line and a large group of fixed partners with the odd private rotation has many of the same features. It surprises me that you are against one and in favour of the second. Could you explain the differences?

grading would certainly reduce the number taking part as a whole.

Yliander points out that it could increase the number. People might feel happier about doing an Intermediate II workshop if they know it will be of that standard, will cover the planned material, and will not be disrupted by those who would be better served by a workshop at a simpler level.

All you want is for a number of classes at weekenders to made unavailable to the opt-outers, a number of workshops to be made unavailable to opt-outers, and some class lessons to be split down the middle where opt-outers don't get to dance with their peers...

It doesn't even need to have that: classes and workshops can have recommended competency levels that work through people's common sense and respect of others rather than being hard and fast rules policed by men with sticks.
I do agree, though, that very good dancers who are ungraded will probably want to get themselves a grade at some point, on the off-chance they see a grade-restricted workshop they find interesting. That's hardly everybody.

who knows what else down the line.

Death sentences for those who fail their dance assesments?

[David Bailey]

No need to get defensive.

I'M NOT GETTING - oops, err, OK then

Of course your not pushing for mandatory opt-in, all you want is for a number of classes at weekenders to made unavailable to the opt-outers, a number of workshops to be made unavailable to opt-outers, and some class lessons to be split down the middle where opt-outers don't get to dance with their peers...

Actually, I'm not sure where I stand on any of those issues - I don't think we've really said anything about the implications of a card system.

However, yes, I'd imagine that you'd produce specialist targetted workshops - and possibly classes - for people who've put the effort in to learn this stuff. Again, this happens in Ceroc Oz, in Jango, and even in Ceroc itself - after all, no-one complains too much about the 6-weeks-to-intermediates rule in Ceroc being too exclusive and snobby...

I'd imagine that these would be additional classes; certainly I don't feel that people who've not done the exams should be penalised. This would be best implemented as an additional option, in my opinon. And again, this has been done in Ceroc UK piecemeal - they've occasionally run advanced classes, and specified that dancers should have been dancing for at least a year before doing those. And again, no-one made an outcry against Evil Snooty Exclusionary Ceroc...

Taking your argument to its extreme, why have different levels of class at all? Why not just have one big class at every Ceroc night? After all, you can't get more inclusive than that...

Standard and objective: of course not. MJ isn't standardized to any great degree,

Thanks to Ceroc, I think MJ is far more standardised than any social dance I know of... What makes you think it's not standardised?

and you'll never get objective feedback, it's always subjective to a certain degree,

Agreed. But a proper standardised system of assessments would be at least as objective as a proper standardised system of teaching, and Ceroc are very good at defining standards.

I dunno about this 1% figure you pulled out of the air for competitions tho, are competitions restricted then ? I thought anybody could enter at least some of the levels. That sounds more like 100% to me.

I'm talking about the number of MJ-ers who actually do take these methods. I'd be impressed if more than 1% of MJ-ers did competitions regularly, beyond a DWAS thing every now and then at their local venue. For a start, you need to find a dance partner...

You remind me of the "The plans are readily available, they've been on display in Alpha Centauri for fifty years now" conversation from the Hitch Hikers Guide To The Galazy...

You keep mixing grading with improvement, they are not the same thing. Improvement costs money, and is positive. Relative to that, grading costs very little, but has big negative drawbacks if any aspect of it impacts on the social side of MJ. (IMO).

You think is may have such impacts - I know that it hasn't, in the two places it's been implemented.

[Yliander]

No need to get defensive.

not defensive just frustrated

Of course your not pushing for mandatory opt-in, all you want is for a number of classes at weekenders to made unavailable to the opt-outers, a number of workshops to be made unavailable to opt-outers, and some class lessons to be split down the middle where opt-outers don't get to dance with their peers... and the inclusivity that's contributed in a big-way to the huge and fast growth of MJ ? Collateral damage obviously..... and who knows what else down the line.
Course it's opt-in. It's completely voluntary. LOL. Not a two-tier system at all. You sure you guys don't work for New Labour ?

I never mentioned Weekenders and unless they were run by a company that actually used cards/grading then I wouldn’t expect there to be any workshops using those levels/gradings and if they did given that there is often 3-4 workshops running at one time – easy enough to have a workshop for each level at any given time

Standard and objective: of course not. MJ isn't standardized to any great degree, and you'll never get objective feedback, it's always subjective to a certain degree, I honestly don't think the type of grading being discussed here will affect that one way or the other.

The assessments in Aus are standard and objective – as they aren’t based on skill not appearance here are the 8 things assessed when being assessed for a blue card.


1 You should have the musical beat, timing and rhythm and also be fluent in step Ceroc footwork.
2 Good hand/finger/arm tension and the ability of guys to lead and ladies to follow the lead.
3 Balanced double spins and the transfer of weight after the spin.
4 Guys leading and girls following the more difficult intermediate moves.
5 The feeling of security, stability and good positioning in dips and drops.
6 Good posture (straight backs and head and shoulders back) and using leg strength (rather than back strength) in dips and drops (guys in particular) and not twisting the lady's back to get her into position.
7 Ladies taking their own weight and holding their bodies rigid/bent when necessary in dips and drops.
8 Competency in dancing the I/A Routine taught in class with I/A teacher.

A number of the items on this list aren’t nessessarily applicable in the UK as dips and drop are not a common component of dancing here – and 8 isn’t applicable as no where (that I’m aware of) in the UK runs an Advanced class at weekly classes – but I’m sure with a little thought a UK relevant list could be put together

I dunno about this 1% figure you pulled out of the air for competitions tho, are competitions restricted then ? I thought anybody could enter at least some of the levels. That sounds more like 100% to me.

they are open to 100% of people but only about 1% of people actually want to do competitions

I'm sorry, I thought we were talking about grading here, not life long improvement courses. Of course if you take the fast improvers track from beginner to advanced super-dancer, it's gonna cost money. With or without grading.

You keep mixing grading with improvement, they are not the same thing. Improvement costs money, and is positive. Relative to that, grading costs very little, but has big negative drawbacks if any aspect of it impacts on the social side of MJ. (IMO).

give me a practical drawback – something other than aww but I won’t want to do it.

You don’t need to be graded to improve – but to obtain higher grades you do need to improve

We all like colourful certficates and medals, of course I don't have anything against anyone going and getting themselves graded. I wouldn't have a problem with grading for some suitable workshops. And if anybody wants to add grading to their private lessons, no worries.

colourful certificates and medals!!!! – damn I feel cheated all I got was a little wallet sized card

on that note - Ceroc Melbourne in Australia - has started running a series of Medals for Ceroc simlar to those done in Ballroom .. haven't heard anything yet on the up take and what is covered in them - will be interesting to see what sort of dancers that system produces

I would have a problem with grading when it starts to impact on the social side of dancing, that's weekly classes, weekenders etc.
No Thank You.

and please do share you actual experience of this? I’m very curious to hear it.

As personally I found it had no impact on the social side of dancing at the weekly venues I attended in Sydney

[TA Guy]

You've come out strongly against having two rotating lines at a class. It seems to me that having one rotating line and a large group of fixed partners with the odd private rotation has many of the same features. It surprises me that you are against one and in favour of the second. Could you explain the differences?

I would have thought that was obvious, one is voluntary, one is mandatory.
One is split by whether you have a Gold Card, one is split by all manner of different things. People thinking they are too good, people thinking they are too bad, people who want to dance with lovers, who knows? One is evolutionary, one is dictatorial. The list of differences goes on....

Yliander points out that it could increase the number. People might feel happier about doing an Intermediate II workshop if they know it will be of that standard, will cover the planned material, and will not be disrupted by those who would be better served by a workshop at a simpler level.

*shrug* Not sure why your asking me. I have no problem with advanced workshops screening. I said that. The problem for me is the social side, the weekly classes and weekenders. Or the introduction of grading as something that covers the whole of MJ. If workshops want to grade, fine, just don't do the grading for workshops during my weekly classes, find some other way.

It doesn't even need to have that: classes and workshops can have recommended competency levels that work through people's common sense and respect of others rather than being hard and fast rules policed by men with sticks.
I do agree, though, that very good dancers who are ungraded will probably want to get themselves a grade at some point, on the off-chance they see a grade-restricted workshop they find interesting. That's hardly everybody.

I can see benefits for workshops. I can see a benefit for certain weekender lessons, but there IMO, the disadvantages outweigh the advantages. I can see no benefit whatsoever for weekly classes. Luckily, aside from one franchise in Australia, every other franchise agrees with me Long may it stay that way.



It's like smoking really. Classes are currently free of the rancid smell of grading (some poetic licence taken here ). If individuals want to go off and get graded outside, I have no problem with that. I just don't want them coming into my class and choking us all with their smoke

[TA Guy]

and please do share you actual experience of this? I’m very curious to hear it.

As personally I found it had no impact on the social side of dancing at the weekly venues I attended in Sydney

No experience in dance. Lots in sport. Different, but the principles of a two-tier system apply.

Whether or not it has an impact in Sydney is a mute point since those who were negatively impacted by it probably stopped going. Even if you say the numbers didn't drop, how do you know they wouldn't be even higher without the grading ? This is a circular argument, neither you or I can prove anything either way.

[TA Guy]

OK, I'm getting beat up here

This is my answer to the one actual question left from yuz two

Why do I think it has a negative impact ?


1) It affects inclusivity. Some will be put off by 'exams', grading clipboards, whatever.
2) It engenders alienation/divisiveness. (creates cliques).
3) It adds competitiveness.
4) It's arbitory and subjective. Who's to say what makes a good dancer?
5) It will hinder evolution of what is still a very young dance.
6) Multiple grading systems by different franchises are inevitable. So confusion and differing standards will arise. (We don't have a world governing body, we don't even have a national body )
7) It adds cost.
8) It's impractical. (at the current time).
9) The world will end!!!

Lastly, it's against the spirit of MJ. Do we really want to go down the Ballroom path ?

That's just off the top of my head.

[TA Guy]

I'M NOT GETTING - oops, err, OK then

Thanks to Ceroc, I think MJ is far more standardised than any social dance I know of... What makes you think it's not standardised?

I'm talking about the number of MJ-ers who actually do take these methods. I'd be impressed if more than 1% of MJ-ers did competitions regularly, beyond a DWAS thing every now and then at their local venue. For a start, you need to find a dance partner...

Last post for now. I can't keep up People coming round!!! Help!

1) Not aimed at you

2) I think MJ is very standardized upto the beginner->intermediate crossover point, then I think it diversifies more than most other dances. It does down here anyway

3) *shrug* OK, 1% do competitions. Not much of an argument for grading if only that small minority are interested in one of the only methods available for grading is it ? The point is, it's there if you want it. You can get yourself graded, albeit with little feedback.

[David Bailey]

I’m sure with a little thought a UK relevant list could be put together

Very little thought.

For example, we could have something like this:

1. You should have the musical beat, timing and rhythm
2. You should be able to balance when dancing without requiring your partner's support.
3. You should have the ability to lead / follow the lead.
4. You can do a standard return without travelling.
5. Guys leading and girls following the more difficult intermediate moves.
6. Good posture (straight backs and head and shoulders back).
7. You should have good hand/finger/arm tension, without yanking or gripping your partner.
8. You should be competent in leading or following the Intermediate Routine taught in class when dancing with a Ceroc teacher.

None of that would be controversial, surely?

If I can come up with something like that in 2 minutes, I'm sure a proper dance organisation can come up with something much better given the time and will.

[Yliander]

I would have thought that was obvious, one is voluntary, one is mandatory.
One is split by whether you have a Gold Card, one is split by all manner of different things. People thinking they are too good, people thinking they are too bad, people who want to dance with lovers, who knows? One is evolutionary, one is dictatorial. The list of differences goes on....

one is based on logic by an individual with experience and training, one is based on random thoughts by people of wide and varied knowledge and experience

*shrug* Not sure why your asking me. I have no problem with advanced workshops screening. I said that. The problem for me is the social side, the weekly classes and weekenders. Or the introduction of grading as something that covers the whole of MJ. If workshops want to grade, fine, just don't do the grading for workshops during my weekly classes, find some other way.

if someone wants to be graded at a week night class what has that got to do with you – the person wants to be graded has a dance with a teacher – gets their grade and/or feedback and goes on their way – in what way does this impact on your enjoyment of the evening?

I can see benefits for workshops. I can see a benefit for certain weekender lessons, but there IMO, the disadvantages outweigh the advantages. I can see no benefit whatsoever for weekly classes. Luckily, aside from one franchise in Australia, every other franchise agrees with me Long may it stay that way.

CMJ is one Company not a franchise actually – with several franchises around the country who all have the option of using cards, and Ceroc Melbourne is now doing medals so not such a large part of the MJ world in Aus agrees with you.

It's like smoking really. Classes are currently free of the rancid smell of grading (some poetic licence taken here ). If individuals want to go off and get graded outside, I have no problem with that. I just don't want them coming into my class and choking us all with their smoke

once again how does someone elses non- health endangering choice affect you?

No experience in dance. Lots in sport. Different, but the principles of a two-tier system apply.

Whether or not it has an impact in Sydney is a mute point since those who were negatively impacted by it probably stopped going. Even if you say the numbers didn't drop, how do you know they wouldn't be even higher without the grading ? This is a circular argument, neither you or I can prove anything either way.

well actually I have seen what happens when assessments come into play when they weren’t there previously.

When I was teaching in Perth it was decided to bring in a yellow card used for beginners to keep track of what they had learnt and at a certain point request an assessment dance with a teacher before moving up to intermediate. I had very serious doubts about the viability of assessment at this level and worried it might put people off.

But generally it actually had the opposite effect the cards with their list of moves and techniques served to give beginners focus and they would cheerfully be looking for pens at the end of consolidation to tick off what they learnt and would be asking which of things on the list would be covered the next week

The thing I noticed was that it didn’t really impact on retention through the 8 weeks of consolidation but did seem to make a difference to their confidence going into intermediate; they knew they had the skills to join in with being out of their depth.

The assessment dance wasn’t a requirement – there was no burly man standing at the door when intermediate class demanding to see your signed beginner class – so nothing stopping people self promoting if they choose to.

[David Bailey]

I would have thought that was obvious, one is voluntary, one is mandatory.

I hate to appear defensive again, but where's the mandatory? Where? I can't see it...

It'd only ever be mandatory to take the exam if you want to do any relevant additional classes. It would be a pre-requisite for those putative classes - that's all. Lots of classes have pre-requisites, at weekenders and elsewhere - I don't see the world collapsing because of one more.

Again, it would not ever be mandatory for social dancing. So let's not try to misrepresent it, OK?

One is split by whether you have a Gold Card, one is split by all manner of different things. People thinking they are too good, people thinking they are too bad, people who want to dance with lovers, who knows? One is evolutionary, one is dictatorial. The list of differences goes on....

Your position (I think) is that this system would lead to segregation, and segregation is Bad.

My position is that segregation happens already, in beginner / intermediate classes, in specialist workshops, in specialist classes at weekenders, and in informally on the dance floor. And the dance is no worse off because of it.

[Yliander]

OK, I'm getting beat up here

hey that’s normally my line!!!

This is my answer to the one actual question left from yuz two Why do I think it has a negative impact ?

1) It affects inclusivity. Some will be put off by 'exams', grading clipboards, whatever.

a teacher dancing with a student and having a short chat with them after is that intrusive?

2) It engenders alienation/divisiveness. (creates cliques).

cliques already exsist based on all sorts of random things

3) It adds competitiveness.

how?? And is that any different to competitions….

4) It's arbitory and subjective. Who's to say what makes a good dancer?

not about a good dancer – about a dancer who can do x, y. z

5) It will hinder evolution of what is still a very young dance.

once again how does defining required skills/compentencies hinder evolution? It gives you tools to work with

6) Multiple grading systems by different franchises are inevitable. So confusion and differing standards will arise. (We don't have a world governing body, we don't even have a national body )

and that is different to the various standards of classes currently around? and to get to have a national/international body someone has to be brave and take the first step

7) It adds cost.

how? CMJ blue/gold cards are free – not sure about cost of Ceroc Melbournes stuff

8) It's impractical. (at the current time).

why? All it takes is a commitment from a company to do it.

9) The world will end!!!

and chicken little has entered the building

Lastly, it's against the spirit of MJ. Do we really want to go down the Ballroom path ?

Oh please!!! Spare me the it’s against the spirit of MJ – what exactly is the spirit of MJ??? Sniping and bitching about other companies? Groaning and moaning when someone refuses your request for a dance?

and no I don’t want to see MJ go down the totally prescribed path of ballroom – see more advantages than disadvanges to clarifying the skills required in MJ as having those skills of balance and spinning to name just two gives a dancer the freedom to follow the music where it leads them in the dance

[bigdjiver]

Ceroc Central have a grading system. A beginner is offered a little pink sticker. Wearing it is not compulsory. It is self assessed. Every once in a while we have a first timer wearing a pink sticker in the intermediate class. It usually turns out that they have been dancing at a competitor for a good while. I suspect the pink sticker has added to their natural senses of alienation. I suspect that those shunted into the refresher class feel even more alienated. Whatever they are feeling I have noticed that there is not a good retention rate amongst them in the short term, although we have many long term regulars who have "crossed over".

[TA Guy]

I hate to appear defensive again, but where's the mandatory? Where? I can't see it...

It'd only ever be mandatory to take the exam if you want to do any relevant additional classes. It would be a pre-requisite for those putative classes - that's all. Lots of classes have pre-requisites, at weekenders and elsewhere - I don't see the world collapsing because of one more.

Again, it would not ever be mandatory for social dancing. So let's not try to misrepresent it, OK?

I'm not. You've taken a reply to a Martin Harper question and misrepresented it, accidentally I'm sure. I've never said anything about social dancing and cards at all.
However, now that you mention it, it wouldn't be too long before some bright spark set up freestyles only for card holders. I'm not sure whether the long term effects of that would be good or bad.

Just so you know, the mandatory element is that the intermediate class is split in two groups of lines, one groups of line is the good dancers, one group of lines is the bad dancers. To join the good dancers it is mandatory to have a card.
If this is how it would be used in weekenders, the same thing would not apply. If you didn't have the card (or whatever), you wouldn't be allowed to join the 'advanced' class. Therefore having the card is mandatory there also.
Similarly with workshops.

Actually, thinking about it, how could you ever think it wasn't mandatory? If your going to screen workshop entries by something, then that something is mandatory to do that workshop, Yes ?
Or are you suggesting at these 'advanced' workshops it not be mandatory, so anybody can enter ? Kinda pointless isn't it ?

Your position (I think) is that this system would lead to segregation, and segregation is Bad.

My position is that segregation happens already, in beginner / intermediate classes, in specialist workshops, in specialist classes at weekenders, and in informally on the dance floor. And the dance is no worse off because of it.

Yes, it does happen.
You cannot state unequivocably that the dance is no worse off for it tho, how do you know? Is there some parallel universe your've visitied where this is not the case ?
As it happens, I agree with you. But there's a limit to how much segregation can be inflicted before it starts to have negative effects. It is my opinion, nothing more, that the system being discussed here takes us past that point.

[NZ Monkey]

When I was teaching in Perth it was decided to bring in a yellow card used for beginners to keep track of what they had learnt and at a certain point request an assessment dance with a teacher before moving up to intermediate. I had very serious doubts about the viability of assessment at this level and worried it might put people off.

But generally it actually had the opposite effect the cards with their list of moves and techniques served to give beginners focus and they would cheerfully be looking for pens at the end of consolidation to tick off what they learnt and would be asking which of things on the list would be covered the next week

The thing I noticed was that it didn’t really impact on retention through the 8 weeks of consolidation but did seem to make a difference to their confidence going into intermediate; they knew they had the skills to join in with being out of their depth.

This was my experience as a begginer as well. It was nice to know exactly what was expected before moving up to the intermediate class. It gave us punters something to focus on, or work towards, or ignore completely if it didn't matter to us at all. All of these were valid options, and there were no police making sure that everyone ticked off their cards after every class. It was a useful having a pocket sized resource when you'd forgotten half the moves you'd done the previous week though.

Regarding subjectivity, the CMJ requirements of

1 You should have the musical beat, timing and rhythm and also be fluent in step Ceroc footwork.
2 Good hand/finger/arm tension and the ability of guys to lead and ladies to follow the lead.
3 Balanced double spins and the transfer of weight after the spin.
4 Guys leading and girls following the more difficult intermediate moves.
5 The feeling of security, stability and good positioning in dips and drops.
6 Good posture (straight backs and head and shoulders back) and using leg strength (rather than back strength) in dips and drops (guys in particular) and not twisting the lady's back to get her into position.
7 Ladies taking their own weight and holding their bodies rigid/bent when necessary in dips and drops.
8 Competency in dancing the I/A Routine taught in class with I/A teacher.

are pretty clear-cut and entirely technical. They're all easily identifiable by watching someone and verifiable by dancing with them and it's unlikely you'll find two experienced people with wildly different opinions on any of those aspects.

Again, considering the environment and preferences of the majority of the UK dancers this wouldn't be a good set of criterion to work from there but the principle is sound.

1) It affects inclusivity. Some will be put off by 'exams', grading clipboards, whatever.

I just want to point out that this isn't a three hour gruelling exam we're talking about. It's 10 minutes at most. It's a dance with the teacher during freestyle or before class for them to give you the nod or suggest that you stay in the beginner class another week or two and work on something specific. No clipboards are required.

To date the only person I know who has ever failed this test is myself. I managed that twice, but I came out better off for it.