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Thread: Absence of Grades in Ceroc/MJ: Should there be more structure?

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    Re: Absence of Grades in Ceroc/MJ: Should there be more structure?

    I case you've skipped most of the other threads, I'm 100% against any form of grading or assessment. But I am 100% behind private lessons and individual feedback - which is the only (limited) advantage I can see assessing dancers would give.

    If you want to have some type of assesment that lists goals to aim for/acheive, then why would you want a blanket one that is intended to cover the whole of the MJ populous rather than one tailored to you as an individual?

    The only people who seem to gain advantage in it are teachers of workshops who don't define exactly what they expect attendees to be able to do before attending (and use some title like "advanced" or "intermediate" )

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    Re: Absence of Grades in Ceroc/MJ: Should there be more structure?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caz View Post
    completely agree with Trouble here. I dance for fun... well i try to ... I do completely believe that you are only as good as the person you dance with tho
    For followers, there's some truth in this - not so much for leaders. But even followers can raise the game of a MJ dance, if they're good enough - typically, by giving their leader the confidence to experiment and loosen up.

    And no-one's saying that assessments take the fun out of dancing - especially because they'd be optional. It annoys me to see people assuming that you either dance for fun or you want to improve your dancing - why can't you do both?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    If you want to have some type of assesment that lists goals to aim for/acheive, then why would you want a blanket one that is intended to cover the whole of the MJ populous rather than one tailored to you as an individual?
    Whilst I agree that "one-size-fits-all" goals are always less effective than individual tailored requirements, you could make that case for any large-scale educational system.

    The benefits of standardised goals are similar to the benefits of standardised teaching, surely? So, for example, you can have a teacher from one area coming to teach in another area, and knowing that people who've passed Stage 1 will understand a certain amount of terminology, and will be able to do a certain amount of technique.

    Again, Australia has that system, and again, it works well - it's a different style, certainly, but no-one's saying that dancers from Oz who came through that system are worse-off for it...

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    Re: Absence of Grades in Ceroc/MJ: Should there be more structure?

    One idea I've been toying with is the "promotion" of dancers to the intermediate lesson. We've all seen the, usually male, dancers who decide they're going to do the intermediate lesson too soon. It holds everything up for the other dancers.

    I've been thinking about producing a Log Book. The new dancers could then log each of the beginners moves they know by ticking against a box naming the move. We could then say that you should continue to attend the consolidation lesson until you've learnt all of the beginners moves - an unticked box would mean that you should not attend the intermediate lesson - of course we'd expect the student to do this themselves rather than come on all heavy handed with the Tazer

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    Re: Absence of Grades in Ceroc/MJ: Should there be more structure?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    One idea I've been toying with is the "promotion" of dancers to the intermediate lesson. We've all seen the, usually male, dancers who decide they're going to do the intermediate lesson too soon. It holds everything up for the other dancers.

    I've been thinking about producing a Log Book. The new dancers could then log each of the beginners moves they know by ticking against a box naming the move. We could then say that you should continue to attend the consolidation lesson until you've learnt all of the beginners moves - an unticked box would mean that you should not attend the intermediate lesson - of course we'd expect the student to do this themselves rather than come on all heavy handed with the Tazer
    Could work like loyalty cards in Caffe Uno, basically - "Get your card stamped with this week's move"

    And to continue the analogy, you could provide an incentive scheme, like a discounted / free first intermediate lesson once you've got all the stamps... Bit of a hassle to do from a admin point of view of course.

    Ceroc Chilterns used to run a loyalty card scheme a while back - I don't think they still do, however. I think it was something like "1 free for every 8 attendances"?

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    Re: Absence of Grades in Ceroc/MJ: Should there be more structure?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    One idea I've been toying with is the "promotion" of dancers to the intermediate lesson. We've all seen the, usually male, dancers who decide they're going to do the intermediate lesson too soon. It holds everything up for the other dancers.

    I've been thinking about producing a Log Book. The new dancers could then log each of the beginners moves they know by ticking against a box naming the move. We could then say that you should continue to attend the consolidation lesson until you've learnt all of the beginners moves - an unticked box would mean that you should not attend the intermediate lesson - of course we'd expect the student to do this themselves rather than come on all heavy handed with the Tazer
    we had something similar to this in Perth (Aus) at one point, it also included technique/skills to have learnt and once all boxes ticked - time to grab a teacher and have a quick assesment dance

    it was up to the individuals to follow this path - they were encouraged to follow this path, with the explanation of if you complete everything on the card before going to intermediate class you will get much more out it.

    I can honestly say that as a teacher I had some serious doubts about it when it was brought in, however it really seemed to work - it helped the students remember what they had learnt over the last few weeks and gave them a focus and clear indication of what they had learnt in just a few weeks

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    Re: Absence of Grades in Ceroc/MJ: Should there be more structure?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    And no-one's saying that assessments take the fun out of dancing - especially because they'd be optional. It annoys me to see people assuming that you either dance for fun or you want to improve your dancing - why can't you do both?
    Thank you DavidJames!

    Quote Originally Posted by gadget
    The only people who seem to gain advantage in it are teachers of workshops who don't define exactly what they expect attendees to be able to do before attending (and use some title like "advanced" or "intermediate" )
    Considering that workshops are commonly considered to be the only place someone can go to really take their MJ to a new level, isn't this kind of important?

    When I go to a workshop in NZ I know that 99% of the people there are capable of picking up the material that has virtually all been tailored to their level, and everyone gets a lot more out of it because of that. It's hard to appreciate just what a difference it can make if you've never experienced it (and you may have, I don't know, but I'm guessing you probably haven't considering how strong your views are).

    As someone who's actually taught in places where this sort of grading system is in place Gus might be worth listening to when he says
    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    Would it mean that when a teacher tries to teach an advanced class they might actualy have advanced dancers in the class and not half the class who barely can do the basics?? It would be a god send for anyone trying to teach or learn a workshop/class whoich required a modicum of expertise. How many discussion have there been on this forum about people attending classes way beyond their level and holding evryone else back. I've only had the pleasure of teaching graded classes in NZ and it was excellent Able to teach at exactly the right level and the dancers in the advanced class were awesome .... best fun and scariest workshop I've ever taken.
    I know, it is only Gus but lets hear they guy out...he tries so hard

    Quote Originally Posted by Ducasi
    It seems to me that the only purpose of a grading system is to tell poor dancers just how bad they truly are. I don't really want to know thanks.
    Then I suggest you find teachers with a little more tact

    Seriously though, it's about giving people individual feedback when they know to expect it and to make sure they really are getting the basics. You can phrase that in a way that makes it very nasty sounding or a way that makes you sound like you genuinly care about how well your students are doing and want to build them up. It isn't the system that's the issue if you think this is a problem, it's the teachers. God forbid that they be expected to be good at dealing with people....teaching a social dance class and all

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    Re: Absence of Grades in Ceroc/MJ: Should there be more structure?

    Attempted edit after the 15 minute grace period:

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    Anyone who thinks there isn't already a "grading system" at work in MJ social dances is a very poor observer.

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    Re: Absence of Grades in Ceroc/MJ: Should there be more structure?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post

    Anyone who thinks there isn't already a "grading system" at work in MJ social dances is a very poor observer.
    That's true, but it's natural. It happens in sports too. It's also very easy to circumvent if you have the desire/courage/social skills <delete as appropriate> or any one of a number of other skills/attributes/talents. It's not an artificial line like grading.

    I believe the Australian system is not country wide, and has resulted in things like two lines at intermediates, good dancers here, bad dancers over there. I would hate that sort of thing. It's not the same as beginner lines, then the 'six weeks and you can try the intermediates' line. It's a message, 'your crap and your good'. I don't want that kind of thing to appear.

    There is also the possibility that many dancers would not agree with the requirements of the test. The test could either be 'time based' and therefore harmless and useless, or 'technically based', therefore useful, and possibly dangerous to the long term health of MJ because despite what people may say, it would impact on the 'fun' aspect for some people.... or it could be any stage inbetween. Who decides ? You might all be completely in favour of 'not having a hand bounce' being one of the criteria You might choke on your bread roll when dancing slotted is considered too 'WCS' and a failure... Those are only examples to make the point, who knows what the ten might decide ???

    I also don't agree with this stuff about inexperienced dancers ruining advanced lessons at weekenders. They pay the same amount as everybody else, as far as I am concerned, they are entitled to do whatever classes they want. You could always do it as fixed couples (or your own small rotating group) or pay for private lessons.



    Ballroom is an example of the terrible and horrific damage this kind of thing can do to a dance Lets not go there.
    Last edited by TA Guy; 3rd-July-2007 at 10:44 PM.

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    Re: Absence of Grades in Ceroc/MJ: Should there be more structure?

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    I believe the Australian system is not country wide, and has resulted in things like two lines at intermediates, good dancers here, bad dancers over there. I would hate that sort of thing. It's not the same as beginner lines, then the 'six weeks and you can try the intermediates' line. It's a message, 'your crap and your good'. I don't want that kind of thing to appear.
    That's a very negative interpretation TA Guy. These are friendly places and friendly people we're talking about here, not horrible elitist snobs or monsters from the black lagoon. Having different lines is a message that there is a progression, not that anyone in one line is crap.

    Of course there are reasons why you might not want that kind of division or level in a single class and I appreciate that. I wouldn't do it that way either if I made the decisions. I think you'll find that in practice though it's a case of a mountain being made out of a molehill. Online. By people on the other side of the world from where it's actually happening. Who might possibly feel just a little bit threatened by the idea of having measurable standards to teach people with.


    There is also the possibility that many dancers would not agree with the requirements of the test.
    If they're experienced dancers already then sure, they'll just have to demonstrate they can dance on the social floor anyway like people do in new venues all over the UK and the rest of the world every week already. If they're not then they're not in a position to make an informed decision anyway.

    I also don't agree with this stuff about inexperienced dancers ruining advanced lessons at weekenders. They pay the same amount as everybody else, as far as I am concerned, they are entitled to do whatever classes they want.
    What does how much they pay have to do with anything? If they're in a class well above them, not getting anything useful out of it because of that and are hampering their partners, they shouldn't be there. Weekenders have plenty of classes for all levels. It isn't like they're lacking choice. They're being overconfident at best and inconsiderate at worst.

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    Re: Loyalty cards

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Could work like loyalty cards in Caffe Uno, basically - "Get your card stamped with this week's move"

    And to continue the analogy, you could provide an incentive scheme, like a discounted / free first intermediate lesson once you've got all the stamps... Bit of a hassle to do from a admin point of view of course.

    Ceroc Chilterns used to run a loyalty card scheme a while back - I don't think they still do, however. I think it was something like "1 free for every 8 attendances"?
    Martin Ellis used to issue a "Swing Thing Loyalty card" for his Thursday classes at Kent House.

    It had 14 squares. A little blue footprint was stamped on a square if you arrived before 8.15pm.

    The 2nd 4th 9th and 14th squares were marked "Bring a friend & get £2 OFF!", FREE!, £2 OFF!, and £2 OFF!, respectively.

    He later replaced it with a slightly different loyalty card (which I've lost).

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    Re: Absence of Grades in Ceroc/MJ: Should there be more structure?

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post

    .......... but grading people I don't think is necessary, and is too inflexible as you can be excellent in 9 out of 10 things tested, but fail on one.
    Just like the old School Certificate which, fortunately, I just managed to scrape through by a whiff whilst others, probably more talented and deserving, failed to get the requisite number of passes or credits.

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    Re: Absence of Grades in Ceroc/MJ: Should there be more structure?

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    ....By people on the other side of the world from where it's actually happening. Who might possibly feel just a little bit threatened by the idea of having measurable standards to teach people with.
    Do you feel that's why MJ's (who want a more challenging dance) try WCS or AT as it not judged with medal tests, unlike ballroom or latin?

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    Smile Re: Medal Tests

    Quote Originally Posted by Miguel View Post
    Do you feel that's why MJ's (who want a more challenging dance) try WCS or AT as it's not judged with medal tests, unlike ballroom or latin?
    Most ballroom/latin classes advertised in Dance Diary are drop-in classes in which medals are never mentioned.

    I think medals are pursued in private or semi-private lessons.

    I think MJ's try WCS and Lindy because they're so apparently similar to MJ, which ballroom/latin isn't.

    I think they try AT because they like the music (and find ballroom/latin or salsa music a bit boring)!

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    Re: Absence of Grades in Ceroc/MJ: Should there be more structure?

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    Considering that workshops are commonly considered to be the only place someone can go to really take their MJ to a new level, isn't this kind of important?
    The list of what the teacher expects the pupils to be able to do/know is important, but saying "this is an advanced workshop" must be the poorest way of doing it! As I said, it's only the teachers (/organisers) who don't outline what is expected and use vague terms that will benifit.

    When I go to a workshop in NZ I know that 99% of the people there are capable of picking up the material that has virtually all been tailored to their level.
    I'm all for tailoring workshops for specific things, but I'm completley against excluding people from attending them because they don't have a bit of paper stamped or are not wearing a badge of a specific colour.

    Exams, tests, assessments, etc breed exclusivity and force a "them and us" mentality onto a social activity: they impose a divide into an all enclusive dance where one should not exist: they make it right to exclude based on opinions of how good or bad someone thinks someone else is. And I can see no place for this within MJ.

    Seriously though, it's about giving people individual feedback when they know to expect it and to make sure they really are getting the basics.
    Then go to privates and get some one-on-one. Much better and tailored to the individual!

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    Re: Absence of Grades in Ceroc/MJ: Should there be more structure?

    Quote Originally Posted by Miguel View Post
    Do you feel that's why MJ's (who want a more challenging dance) try WCS or AT as it not judged with medal tests, unlike ballroom or latin?
    I'd say it's because they're cool dances based on the principle of improvisational freestyle lead by the music.
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Re: Absence of Grades in Ceroc/MJ: Should there be more structure?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    I'm all for tailoring workshops for specific things, but I'm completley against excluding people from attending them because they don't have a bit of paper stamped or are not wearing a badge of a specific colour.
    It isn't exclusion based on a badge or a piece of paper - it's exclusion based on the lack of the basic fundamental skills required to be able to absorb what the teachers are trying to impart the pupils.

    Your argument is sounding a little to me like "I'm completely against excluding 10 year olds from stunt driving courses just because they don't have a little card that says they've learnt how to drive yet".

    Yes, there will be a few cases where people who are very likely to be capable won't have the card. Workshop teachers are not unreasonable in general I think and if you can corner them and make a case then exceptions can always be made when there is obviously no problem.

    Exams, tests, assessments, etc breed exclusivity and force a "them and us" mentality onto a social activity: they impose a divide into an all enclusive dance where one should not exist: they make it right to exclude based on opinions of how good or bad someone thinks someone else is. And I can see no place for this within MJ.
    Did you find this at school? Did everyone who had passed their O levels suddenly cut themselves off from all those who hadn't? I don't see an "us and them" mentality in places where grading is the norm at all ( and *cough* I've spent just as long in places with them as without them).

    Any cliquiness is no worse than anything I've seen in London which has no grades in Ceroc. For the record, I don't think London was that bad either despite complaints on this forum to the contrary. Do you really think people are not excluded based on how good or bad other people think they are already? No card or badge is required for that.

    If you're bothering to come to classes presumably you want to learn from them. That means considering and accepting the advice of your teacher most of the time. You're already being judged (although there are far nicer ways to say it). I think the most important thing is that you take this in the light that it's almost always meant in - which is a desire to nurture rather than exclude.

    I'm sure Franck has opinions of who the better dancers are in his classes and what they need to do to improve. His attitude is to develop and be friendly to his students, and I have no doubt that you've taken on board some of his advice somewhere along the line. In order to give you advice he had to see where your weaknesses (read: areas that could use improvement if you prefer a lovie delivery) are and constructively convey them. He has had to make a judgment on what those weaknesses were and which ones would be the most useful to pass along right now. That doesn't make him a bad man, it makes him a good teacher.

    That drifted slightly off topic but I have to leave my computer now and head off to actually dance now

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    Re: Absence of Grades in Ceroc/MJ: Should there be more structure?

    Quote Originally Posted by Miguel View Post
    Do you feel that's why MJ's (who want a more challenging dance) try WCS or AT as it not judged with medal tests, unlike ballroom or latin?
    Nah, it's just that those are more "known" dances than ballroom, for most MJ-ers - you see the occasional AT and WCS reference in MJ, but almost never a ballroom reference.

    Medals or lack thereof aren't really a factor.

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    Re: Absence of Grades in Ceroc/MJ: Should there be more structure?

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    That's a very negative interpretation TA Guy. These are friendly places and friendly people we're talking about here, not horrible elitist snobs or monsters from the black lagoon. Having different lines is a message that there is a progression, not that anyone in one line is crap.
    Of course, because a percentage of the people to whom this is a none too subtle reminder that there actually not in the top XXX when it comes to picking up dance have probably left. Of course what's left is friendly to each other. Shame about the rest isn't it?

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    Who might possibly feel just a little bit threatened by the idea of having measurable standards to teach people with.
    I doubt that, but I can't speak for others. Lets face it, we already have grading... at private lessons, Jango, competitions etc. Anyone who wants to get their dancing graded can easily do it. This is not about the grading aspect so much, more about the making something that is already voluntary and available, compulsory, and all the negative aspects contained within that.

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    ... they shouldn't be there. Weekenders have plenty of classes for all levels. It isn't like they're lacking choice. They're being overconfident at best and inconsiderate at worst.
    You see them as overconfident and inconsiderate, I tend to see them as people wanting to improve, or just have fun.
    I get the point, it's no fun trying to learn something advanced when someone comes along who hasn't even got the basics. I'm not arguing with that.
    My point is, these classes arn't described in any detail, no one said they shouldn't take part, they paid the same amount of money as everyone else and inclusivity is a big part of MJ, even if it has downsides.
    Now your 'advanced' you may feel this should be tinkered with to suit your own personal requirements. *shrug* If your going to implement entry standards, I dunno? would about half the classes be not available to beginners ? Do they get a refund? A lower price ? Told not to come ?
    Whole can of worms, especially when you consider private lessons tailored to individuals already exlst, and there's nothing to stop you dancing with your 'chosen' partners as a fixed couple in these lessons anyway. I'm guessing that's the reason why at least some do that already.

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    Re: Absence of Grades in Ceroc/MJ: Should there be more structure?

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    My point is, these classes arn't described in any detail, no one said they shouldn't take part, ...
    Absolutely. Classes should be described in detail. People without pre-requisite skills should be told that they would be better off going to other classes first to build those skills.

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    If your going to implement entry standards, I dunno? would about half the classes be not available to beginners?
    Organisers should offer classes based on the people attending. I would expect that the majority of classes would continue to have no specific entry requirements besides a willingness to learn. Given that there are beginner-specific classes at many weekenders, where experienced dancers are plainly not welcome, I don't see that this is wildly unfair.

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    there's nothing to stop you dancing with your 'chosen' partners as a fixed couple in these lessons anyway.
    If we're talking about exclusivity and such, my feeling is that fixed partners (as a group) make more of a difference than grading would, particularly if people are fixing to avoid the less capable dancers. One of the benefits of grading is that it should reduce the amount of people fixing for that reason.

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    Re: Absence of Grades in Ceroc/MJ: Should there be more structure?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    The list of what the teacher expects the pupils to be able to do/know is important, but saying "this is an advanced workshop" must be the poorest way of doing it! As I said, it's only the teachers (/organisers) who don't outline what is expected and use vague terms that will benifit.
    which is why the assessments were brought in Australia. So that if a teacher was doing a workshop/class and required a that the students have certain skills they would know that they would have them rather then being presented with a group that may or may not have the required skills.sucessfully completed classes y & z if you haven’t then you will be in w class – makes for a much better learning environment for both teacher and student.

    The Australian cards are skill/technique and it’s not that you have to be the best at them – just be competent at them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    I'm all for tailoring workshops for specific things, but I'm completley against excluding people from attending them because they don't have a bit of paper stamped or are not wearing a badge of a specific colour.
    yes there are workshops that require a card level – but there are far more that are for beginners and intermediates.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    Exams, tests, assessments, etc breed exclusivity and force a "them and us" mentality onto a social activity: they impose a divide into an all enclusive dance where one should not exist: they make it right to exclude based on opinions of how good or bad someone thinks someone else is. And I can see no place for this within MJ.
    *******S!!!! There is already so many “us and them” mentality’s in the Modern Jive scene here that I’m constantly surprised that it’s as friendly as it

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    Then go to privates and get some one-on-one. Much better and tailored to the individual!
    And this is not always a practical option for everyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    I doubt that, but I can't speak for others. Lets face it, we already have grading... at private lessons, Jango, competitions etc. Anyone who wants to get their dancing graded can easily do it. This is not about the grading aspect so much, more about the making something that is already voluntary and available, compulsory, and all the negative aspects contained within that.
    you mention competitions here as a way of having your dancing graded and I have to say that they are a poor way to have your dancing graded
    • a teacher is not actually dancing with the person so very difficult to actually assess their skill accurately
    • requires a dance partner
    • not everyone wants to put themselves on stage for the sort of dissection that can come a competitors way
    • Judges only get to watch each couple for a matter of seconds
    • There is a large subjective element to competition
    • Competition dancing is a different beast to
      social dancing
    • Little opportunity for personal feedback


    there has been a lot of talk about assessments crushing people and making them feel bad about their dancing– a 10 minute one on one session with a teacher is more crushing than not making it through even a heat of a competition?!?!?

    As to Jango – not readily available to all and Private Lessons are expensive

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    You see them as overconfident and inconsiderate, I tend to see them as people wanting to improve, or just have fun.
    I get the point, it's no fun trying to learn something advanced when someone comes along who hasn't even got the basics. I'm not arguing with that.
    so how would you propose to help prevent people from self promoting to classes/workshops etc that they dont' have the basics for?

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    My point is, these classes arn't described in any detail, no one said they shouldn't take part, they paid the same amount of money as everyone else and inclusivity is a big part of MJ, even if it has downsides.
    Now your 'advanced' you may feel this should be tinkered with to suit your own personal requirements. *shrug* If your going to implement entry standards, I dunno? would about half the classes be not available to beginners ? Do they get a refund? A lower price ? Told not to come ?
    actually the once a month/6 week classes for blue and gold cards make little difference to beginners – the night starts with a beginners class and after the first freestyle is followed by consolidation/beginner progression class.

    For Intermediates things get mixed up a little – I believe if it’s a blue card class – there will be intermediate rows and blue card rows and everyone does the same class – with a soft option for the intermediates.

    As I recall for a gold card class intermediate class happens as normal while beginner progression is going on and at the same time the gold card class takes place with blue and gold card lines – with a soft option for the blue card holders.

    So no-one is deprived of anything if they choose not to opt in to the assessment program

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