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Thread: Absence of Grades in Ceroc/MJ: Should there be more structure?

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    Absence of Grades in Ceroc/MJ: Should there be more structure?

    Just curious to see what people thought about the general lack of grading within MJ/Ceroc, when compared with, say, ballroom, where you have a pretty clearly stratified progression of levels, within which a dancer can gauge their development.

    Ceroc has the Beginner/Intermediate/Advanced thing, which as everyone knows, is pretty imprecise.

    I know that Jango has a white card, yellow card, green card etc system; does anyone think it would be helpful to introduce this to Ceroc? I guess the immediate objection would be that it would mean a commitment to turning up each week and moving through a course of lessons, rather than the dip-in-and-out-as-you-like way in which Ceroc is organised at the moment.

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    Re: Absence of Grades in Ceroc/MJ: Should there be more structure?

    There was a good discussion on this somewhere if anyone can Harperlink - DJ think you started it maybe?

    IMO in a nutshell - automatic grading would be a bad idea as the majority of people just want a relaxing social night out when they go dancing, but some sort of 'opt in' method of progression would be good for those who want the more serious side of advancing in skill level and would like to have something (other than competing) to use to measure that progress.

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    Re: Absence of Grades in Ceroc/MJ: Should there be more structure?

    I like the dip-in-and-out-as-you-like way it's organised as it means if I miss a week (more often than not due to work ), it doesn't matter

    And, if work takes me away from home, it always allows me to dance somewhere new

    And, even if there was a grading system, I'm sure not everyone would use it - I danced ballroom for 8 years and the only exam I took was social 4 in latin - doesn't always tell you how good someone is (or maybe it does )

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    Re: Absence of Grades in Ceroc/MJ: Should there be more structure?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn View Post
    There was a good discussion on this somewhere if anyone can Harperlink - DJ think you started it maybe?

    IMO in a nutshell - automatic grading would be a bad idea as the majority of people just want a relaxing social night out when they go dancing, but some sort of 'opt in' method of progression would be good for those who want the more serious side of advancing in skill level and have something (other than competing) to use to measure that progress.
    I had a feeling that this must have been discussed before, but I couldn't find the relevant thread. I think the route you mention (give grading to those that want it) is a sensible idea. But conversely, should you then veto people who have just started from joining in with 'Advanced' classes? I ask because at one of the venues I dance at, you get people joining in with the Intermediate Class on their first visit to Ceroc. I am all for people having a go, but it's also very frustrating to be partnered with someone who can't even do a First Move when you're trying to negotiate something more demanding.

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    Re: Absence of Grades in Ceroc/MJ: Should there be more structure?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn View Post
    There was a good discussion on this somewhere if anyone can Harperlink - DJ think you started it maybe?
    I've done a couple, actually

    - http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/l...rd-system.html
    - http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/l...-bad-idea.html

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    Re: Absence of Grades in Ceroc/MJ: Should there be more structure?

    Anyway, to repeat my views:
    Quote Originally Posted by Terpsichorea View Post
    Just curious to see what people thought about the general lack of grading within MJ/Ceroc, when compared with, say, ballroom, where you have a pretty clearly stratified progression of levels, within which a dancer can gauge their development.
    I think it's poor, and it's one of the key factors holding back development of MJ dancers in the UK.

    Quote Originally Posted by Terpsichorea View Post
    Ceroc has the Beginner/Intermediate/Advanced thing, which as everyone knows, is pretty imprecise.
    Actually, I don't even thing Ceroc has "advanced" - just beginners and intermediates. Which is even worse, of course.

    Quote Originally Posted by Terpsichorea View Post
    I know that Jango has a white card, yellow card, green card etc system; does anyone think it would be helpful to introduce this to Ceroc?
    One of the Ceroc organisations in Australia also uses a card system, which seems to work OK - that may be a more appropriate comparison to use.

    Looking at the Jango card programme, the higher the card level, the less it sounds like MJ and the more it sounds like pure AT...

    Oh, and I'm only 1 hour of lessons away from qualifying for my Jango Yellow Card! Wooo!

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    Re: Absence of Grades in Ceroc/MJ: Should there be more structure?

    Quote Originally Posted by Terpsichorea View Post
    I had a feeling that this must have been discussed before, but I couldn't find the relevant thread. I think the route you mention (give grading to those that want it) is a sensible idea.
    Yes - given the Ceroc / MJ culture, the only (slightly) realistic option would be to make assessments optional.

    Quote Originally Posted by Terpsichorea View Post
    But conversely, should you then veto people who have just started from joining in with 'Advanced' classes?
    That's what they do in Oz, I believe. I think they typically have two lines for the intermediate class - one for advanced and one for intermediates. Something like that. I've no idea how this is enforced or policed however.

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    Re: Absence of Grades in Ceroc/MJ: Should there be more structure?

    Quote Originally Posted by Terpsichorea View Post
    Just curious to see what people thought about the general lack of grading within MJ/Ceroc,
    I now have images of us all turning up at Southport with our grade badges attached to our dance bag (a bit like my kids swimming badges)

    Imagine the shame of turning up without even your beginners bagde. Well shameful

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    Re: Absence of Grades in Ceroc/MJ: Should there be more structure?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Yes - given the Ceroc / MJ culture, the only (slightly) realistic option would be to make assessments optional.


    That's what they do in Oz, I believe. I think they typically have two lines for the intermediate class - one for advanced and one for intermediates. Something like that. I've no idea how this is enforced or policed however.
    I think the impossibility of policing it would be a real sticking point - you couldn't really frogmarch people out of line and chuck them at the back of the hall with the rest of the beginners!

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    Re: Absence of Grades in Ceroc/MJ: Should there be more structure?

    BADGES, GRADES, CARDS, what are we .... dancers or football players...

    i think its fine as it is. Social, fun and nothing serious. if you wanna get serious, competitions are there for you, thats all you need.

    IMHO, your only as good as your partner anyway, whether your leading or following.

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    Re: Absence of Grades in Ceroc/MJ: Should there be more structure?

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    I now have images of us all turning up at Southport with our grade badges attached to our dance bag (a bit like my kids swimming badges)

    Imagine the shame of turning up without even your beginners bagde. Well shameful
    Yep, it could lead to some interesting conversations: I'm sorry, I can't dance with you, we're not equivalent grades

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    Re: Absence of Grades in Ceroc/MJ: Should there be more structure?

    One thing that strikes me... How do you back grade everyone that has reached a certain level? Or do you even try?

    Whitetiger

    Just occurred to me:

    I'd like to see anyone try to put Franck (or any other teacher) back to the beginners class as they hadn't got their badge.

    Last edited by whitetiger1518; 2nd-July-2007 at 02:39 PM.

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    Re: Absence of Grades in Ceroc/MJ: Should there be more structure?

    Quote Originally Posted by Terpsichorea View Post
    Yep, it could lead to some interesting conversations: I'm sorry, I can't dance with you, we're not equivalent grades
    Brilliant. I'd never have to tell some numpty the real reason, that his breath smells and his armpits stink like a decomposing skunk. I could simply use the badge excuse. I'm lovin' that one.

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    Re: Absence of Grades in Ceroc/MJ: Should there be more structure?

    Quote Originally Posted by whitetiger1518 View Post
    One thing that strikes me... How do you back grade everyone that has reached a certain level? Or do you even try?

    Whitetiger

    Just occurred to me:

    I'd like to see anyone try to put Franck (or any other teacher) back to the beginners class as they hadn't got their badge.

    That would be a major problem - you can imagine peoples' ire if they weren't accorded the grade to which they felt they were due!

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    Re: Absence of Grades in Ceroc/MJ: Should there be more structure?

    ...and could you imagine certain people grading others............

    ....eg. Woodface grading Andy - or vice versa?


    Who grades the graders? Who is at the top of the tree?

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    Re: Absence of Grades in Ceroc/MJ: Should there be more structure?

    Quote Originally Posted by JiveLad View Post
    ...and could you imagine certain people grading others............

    ....eg. Woodface grading Andy - or vice versa?


    Who grades the graders? Who is at the top of the tree?
    I suppose it would have to be some officially sanctioned body. So the assumption would be that if you were a qualified Ceroc teacher, you would be qualified to grade other Ceroc dancers.

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    Re: Absence of Grades in Ceroc/MJ: Should there be more structure?

    Quote Originally Posted by Terpsichorea View Post
    I suppose it would have to be some officially sanctioned body. So the assumption would be that if you were a qualified Ceroc teacher, you would be qualified to grade other Ceroc dancers.
    They are too corrupt. 50p and half a curly whirly and they would turn a blind eye to the fact that you stepped back on the wrong foot.

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    Re: Absence of Grades in Ceroc/MJ: Should there be more structure?

    Quote Originally Posted by Terpsichorea View Post
    I think the impossibility of policing it would be a real sticking point - you couldn't really frogmarch people out of line and chuck them at the back of the hall with the rest of the beginners!
    Dunno - I mean, clearly it can be policed, they do it in Oz - just needs some effort I guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by whitetiger1518 View Post
    One thing that strikes me... How do you back grade everyone that has reached a certain level? Or do you even try?
    You don't - you either say everyone does it, or no-one does. It's not fair otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by whitetiger1518 View Post
    I'd like to see anyone try to put Franck (or any other teacher) back to the beginners class as they hadn't got their badge.
    Assessments shouldn't be based on time served, they should be based on ability.

    And if such a system were implemented, then I'm sure Franck - and any other teachers worth their salt - would happily take the time to do any relevant assessments, and treat it as both a good example, and as good training.

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    Re: Absence of Grades in Ceroc/MJ: Should there be more structure?

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    They are too corrupt. 50p and half a curly whirly and they would turn a blind eye to the fact that you stepped back on the wrong foot.
    Imagine what they'd do for a giant-size Toblerone

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    Re: Absence of Grades in Ceroc/MJ: Should there be more structure?

    There is a fair bit of discussion about the Australian CMJ card system on the first thread DJ linked to....


    Quote Originally Posted by Trouble View Post
    i think its fine as it is. Social, fun and nothing serious. if you wanna get serious, competitions are there for you, thats all you need.
    some people would like to know they have obtained certain skill levels with out competing

    in Australia all cards/assesment are opt in and not preclude you from anything but give you access to specialised classes

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