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Thread: 5,6,7,8 and bounce

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    5,6,7,8 and bounce

    Bouncing has been mentioned in loads of other threads but haven't seen a recent one so here it is.


    I have noticed over the last few months that every teacher I have ever seen when counting in to do a move either bounces or over exaggerates side to side movements.

    People copy the teachers and do the bounce side movements themselves. Do you think this is where the bounce is born?

    I have tried it myself a few times. Bouncing really bad on the count then trying to do the routine smooth. Pretty difficult to get in to the smoothness and thats when you are aware that you want to be smooth.

    I don't believe circle step back, is the biggest problem Think it is the count in and the fact no teachers I have ever seen have said that bouncing is not a good trait.

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    Re: 5,6,7,8 and bounce

    I have a penchant for dragging ladies who have never partner danced before onto the dancefloor. Doing that I am sometimes grateful for any mechanism I can find to try and relate the music to the movement. If I could have sold "4-5-6-7-8 and bounce" as a genuine MJ move I would sometimes have been tempted to have tried that. I suspect that it may be an even more important building block for some male beginners. Leaving the lesson with just that might, in a very fewcases, be genuine progress.
    I can see the point of the lowest common denominator and in getting them to bring their bad habits back next week.

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    Re: 5,6,7,8 and bounce

    Quote Originally Posted by woodface View Post
    Bouncing has been mentioned in loads of other threads but haven't seen a recent one so here it is.


    I have noticed over the last few months that every teacher I have ever seen when counting in to do a move either bounces or over exaggerates side to side movements.

    People copy the teachers and do the bounce side movements themselves. Do you think this is where the bounce is born?

    I have tried it myself a few times. Bouncing really bad on the count then trying to do the routine smooth. Pretty difficult to get in to the smoothness and thats when you are aware that you want to be smooth.

    I don't believe circle step back, is the biggest problem Think it is the count in and the fact no teachers I have ever seen have said that bouncing is not a good trait.
    I'm not sure it's any one thing that causes bouncing. If you look at WCS and Lindy sites, you'll also find people complaining about beginners bouncing their hands to mark the beat. I think it's a pretty natural error for people to fall into.

    As you say, the big problem with MJ is that it isn't discouraged. And in fact, when I started, the 'bounce' look was actually encouraged (I can't remember the actual words from the teacher, but I do remember getting the impression I was "supposed" to have a bounce). I think that has now changed, but for many years, the result has been that beginners have watched the "good" dancers, seen they are all bouncy, and thought that was what they should be doing as well. As I say, it's changing, and there are a lot more smooth role models now. But there's a lot of inertia in the user base, so I think it will take a long time to go completely.

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    Re: 5,6,7,8 and bounce

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post

    As you say, the big problem with MJ is that it isn't discouraged. And in fact, when I started, the 'bounce' look was actually encouraged (I can't remember the actual words from the teacher, but I do remember getting the impression I was "supposed" to have a bounce). I think that has now changed, but for many years, the result has been that beginners have watched the "good" dancers, seen they are all bouncy, and thought that was what they should be doing as well. As I say, it's changing, and there are a lot more smooth role models now. But there's a lot of inertia in the user base, so I think it will take a long time to go completely.

    You might be right. I have seen one or two MJ "superstars" that just seemed plain bouncy to me, maybe some of it has filtered down but if we are talking about beginners and the average intermediate, they would not have seen these "Superstar" Mj'ers

    You can norm tell the bouncers when standing in line waiting for the women to walk up with the x women on. They are bouncing to the music on their way up.

    Of course most dancers are blissfully unaware that they are doing it and to them dancing is only a weekly getting out activity. They prob in all honesty couldn't care less if they looked great or not as dancing is just something to do. I feel it would make their enjoyment greater though. I found dancing alot more fun once smoothness and style is added (not that I have any).

    Maybe some of it is from the 'Jive' tag. People have an expectation that the dance is going to be more 'Jivey' than it actually should be.

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    Re: 5,6,7,8 and bounce

    Quote Originally Posted by woodface View Post
    You might be right. I have seen one or two MJ "superstars" that just seemed plain bouncy to me, maybe some of it has filtered down but if we are talking about beginners and the average intermediate, they would not have seen these "Superstar" Mj'ers
    I don't think there's any "superstar" (or even dwarf star) who is even remotely bouncy compared with the old days though.

    Here's a MJ clip from 1996: (no sound, at least on my machine).

    Now this is the only decent clip I found from that far back, and it's a bit unfair, because it's an aerials comp, so the people probably have Lindy/Rock'n'Roll backgrounds. But I have a video of the main comp around then (might be 1995), and to be honest, most of the people danced like that then. Nigel Anderson was a pretty bouncy dancer back then, for example.

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    Re: 5,6,7,8 and bounce

    your right they are really bouncy. Shows how far MJ has come.

    There is a very similar dance style to one or two of the older dancers out there. Back then I suppose it was more about Jive.

    Also maybe it's something to do with modern music. If in the 90's the music played at venues was more rock n roll or swing than now where there is more pop it would have encouraged it.

    Still that was ages ago. 10 years on are we still inheriting that kind of bounce or is there another cause. I doubt new dancers, which is where the bounce starts, are picking up the bounce from watching old youtube clips so it has to be coming from somewhere else thats either mental, physical or the way it's taught.

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    Re: 5,6,7,8 and bounce

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    I don't think there's any "superstar" (or even dwarf star) who is even remotely bouncy compared with the old days though.

    Here's a MJ clip from 1996: (no sound, at least on my machine).

    Now this is the only decent clip I found from that far back, and it's a bit unfair, because it's an aerials comp, so the people probably have Lindy/Rock'n'Roll backgrounds. But I have a video of the main comp around then (might be 1995), and to be honest, most of the people danced like that then. Nigel Anderson was a pretty bouncy dancer back then, for example.
    Definite Lindy'ish look, and I found myself humming "Candyman" to it. (I have often wondered how an interpretation test, "Guess the tune" to soundless performance would work out.)
    For me it is as simple as "if the music bounces, I bounce." and love doing it.
    I also found heartening the "I am going to show my knickers to the whole room" attitude. I feel there should be a much laxer dress code in MJ. It is an aerobic sport, and there is an excuse for more exposure. Not quite to the "on the tropical beach" levels, but moving that way.

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    Re: 5,6,7,8 and bounce

    Quote Originally Posted by woodface View Post
    Still that was ages ago. 10 years on are we still inheriting that kind of bounce
    Well, it's getting better. But we still have lots of "experienced" dancers who learned to dance like that and haven't changed. And because they're experienced, and they know some moves, they impress beginners. (And of course, a fair few of them are teachers). Who then think that's how they're supposed to look.

    Now, that's far from the only story; there are lots of dancers (both old and new) who have a much smoother style. And the body people who learned 10 years ago and haven't changed is shrinking (they're getting old!). But it's a slow process.

    I doubt new dancers, which is where the bounce starts, are picking up the bounce from watching old youtube clips so it has to be coming from somewhere else thats either mental, physical or the way it's taught.
    I really think it's the body of experienced dancers. Even if we can see they're "not that good", the beginners can't. At every venue with a reasonable number of beginners, I see these old-style dancers "helping". And so of course a lot of the beginners learn to bounce.

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    Re: 5,6,7,8 and bounce

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    Well, it's getting better. But we still have lots of "experienced" dancers who learned to dance like that and haven't changed. And because they're experienced, and they know some moves, they impress beginners. (And of course, a fair few of them are teachers). Who then think that's how they're supposed to look.

    Now, that's far from the only story; there are lots of dancers (both old and new) who have a much smoother style. And the body people who learned 10 years ago and haven't changed is shrinking (they're getting old!). But it's a slow process.

    I really think it's the body of experienced dancers. Even if we can see they're "not that good", the beginners can't. At every venue with a reasonable number of beginners, I see these old-style dancers "helping". And so of course a lot of the beginners learn to bounce.
    Seems quite a few beginners are in to rock n roll two. I think the type of music you like can play a part.

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    Re: 5,6,7,8 and bounce

    Quote Originally Posted by woodface View Post
    Seems quite a few beginners are in to rock n roll two. I think the type of music you like can play a part.
    I much prefer rock n roll three – less bouncy.
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Re: 5,6,7,8 and bounce

    Quote Originally Posted by woodface View Post
    I have noticed over the last few months that every teacher I have ever seen when counting in to do a move either bounces or over exaggerates side to side movements.
    Yes, I'm not a huge fan of the exagerated swing from side to side on the count, though it can look good and convey energy when done well.

    My take on counting in is to teach a (subtle) weight change from foot to foot during the 'Ceroc Essentials' warm-up and refer to that during the class to help Beginners find the beat. I also ask them not to move their hands during the count (the hand will move as a result of the side to side sway but not beyond). As a result, beginners are better at finding the beat and get used to body leads, rather than exaggerated hand leads.
    Franck.

    There's an A.P.P. for that!

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    Re: 5,6,7,8 and bounce

    Quote Originally Posted by woodface View Post
    I have noticed over the last few months that every teacher I have ever seen when counting in to do a move either bounces or over exaggerates side to side movements.

    People copy the teachers and do the bounce side movements themselves. Do you think this is where the bounce is born?
    When I first started Ceroc classes the teachers and taxi dancers did this (and I think they still do) and I thought it was the norm because I didn't know otherwise. It took me quite a while to iron out the bouncing hand once I did realise how much nicer a smoooooth dance is.

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    Re: 5,6,7,8 and bounce

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    ........Here's a MJ clip from 1996: (no sound, at least on my machine)..
    No sound on mine either

    The chap on the right is Robert Heaven - he has a Rock 'n' Roll background and was actually teaching Aerials in Brighton at that time. We hardly see him these days as he is back to his RnR roots.

    I believe the chap on the right is Brian (forgotten his surname) who is back on the MJ scene (I think he had a break) - not sure of his dance background as I have only known him to dance MJ


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    Re: 5,6,7,8 and bounce

    I think some guys bounce thinking it is dancing, amusingly I think some think the more the bounce the greater the dancing ability,

    G

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    Re: 5,6,7,8 and bounce

    Quote Originally Posted by woodface View Post
    Still that was ages ago. 10 years on are we still inheriting that kind of bounce or is there another cause. I doubt new dancers, which is where the bounce starts, are picking up the bounce from watching old youtube clips so it has to be coming from somewhere else thats either mental, physical or the way it's taught.
    I've found that the bouncy hands here belong to people who've done lots of rock & roll dancing. Invariably once I've started dancing with them, I've found that my hand is getting pulled up and down, and it's hard to stay smooth.

    (Off topic, but I do find it really annoying when ex-rock & roll dancers find it incompatible to occasionally stop bouncing/jiving. You manage to recognise that a break is coming, and time the move perfectly for a freeze in time with the music, but they insist of trying to dance/jiggle during the break )

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    Senior Member Minnie M's Avatar
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    Re: 5,6,7,8 and bounce

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveK View Post
    ......... You manage to recognise that a break is coming, and time the move perfectly for a freeze in time with the music, but they insist of trying to dance/jiggle during the break )

    AFIK it is only in MJ that you actually FREEZE in the break - ALL other styles use the time for free expression

    Have you ever looked at the expression on MJ dancers when the do actually freeze Personally I think a sexy wiggle is far better

    I have started a new thread about 'freezing' as I think it is an interesting topic (thanks)
    Last edited by Minnie M; 28th-June-2007 at 07:45 AM.


    --ooOoo--
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    That date is recognized as her official birthday.

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